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Pirate Manifesto IRC meeting 20080724

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(19:44:44) bAdBoYz: hey
(19:47:24) aiaraOUT: hi
(19:48:55) K`Tetch: sup
(19:50:34) DracoFlameus: hey all ^^
(19:57:27) aiaraOUT is now known as Aiarakoa_ES
(20:00:15) Aiarakoa_ES: let's gonna start?
(20:00:37) zzorn is now known as zzorn_FI
(20:01:27) Aiarakoa_ES: how many parties attending today?
(20:01:54) arek_pl [arek_pl@pp-976ECD8D.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] entered the room.
(20:02:10) arek_pl: hi guys
(20:02:12) Aiarakoa_ES: hi
(20:02:15) zzorn_FI: hi
(20:02:17) Aiarakoa_ES: ES, FI & PL up to now
(20:02:24) ***zzorn_FI is mostly just lurking
(20:02:27) Aiarakoa_ES: K`Tetch?
(20:02:36) bAdBoYz is now known as bAdBoYz_AT
(20:02:40) Aiarakoa_ES: also AT
(20:02:47) bAdBoYz_AT: yeah..
(20:02:48) bAdBoYz_AT: ^^
(20:03:15) mjr [mjr@pp-C54EAB18.sange.fi] entered the room.
(20:03:18) Aiarakoa_ES: with K`Tetch it would be ES, FI, PL, US & AT
(20:03:27) Roderick [Roderick@5AE94292.AB1804AB.2B25DC93.IP] entered the room.
(20:03:44) Aiarakoa_ES: with Roderick it would be ES, FI, PL, US, AT & AU
(20:03:46) Aiarakoa_ES: no german? no swedish?
(20:03:51) Aiarakoa_ES: no dutch?
(20:04:12) Roderick: good morning :)
(20:04:14) Apachez [apachez@pp-3E068A2C.home.staertesjoen.se] entered the room.
(20:04:28) Roderick: sorry about last meeting, work called unfortunately.
(20:04:39) Aiarakoa_ES: don't worry
(20:04:41) Aiarakoa_ES: any Piraten Partij representative?
(20:04:47) Aiarakoa_ES: any Deutsches Piraten Partei representative?
(20:04:50) Aiarakoa_ES: any Piratpartiet representative?
(20:05:08) Aiue [jns@pp-551B8037.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] entered the room.
(20:05:13) Apachez: JAWOHL!
(20:05:15) PDA [pda@pp-1AA38D16.adsl.highway.telekom.at] entered the room.
(20:05:30) Aiarakoa_ES: so you're German, apachez?
(20:05:54) Aiue: apachez@pp-3E068A2C.home.staertesjoen.se!sweden
(20:06:11) Aiue: No in Germany, in any case. ;)
(20:06:31) ***Aiarakoa_ES asks attending folks to add the country suffix (like zzorn or bAdBoYz)
(20:06:50) bAdBoYz_AT: i've done it already
(20:06:52) Xuenay [Xuenay@pp-5CC0EED8.org.helsinki.fi] entered the room.
(20:06:52) Aiue is now known as Aiue_SE
(20:07:00) Roderick is now known as Roderick_AU
(20:07:03) Apachez: yeah and im from eztonia
(20:07:18) Apachez: or ezpanol
(20:07:22) Apachez: depends on the mood
(20:07:23) Aiarakoa_ES: oh is there a pirate party in Estonia?
(20:07:35) Aiarakoa_ES: oh it was a joke about EZ
(20:07:36) Aiarakoa_ES: :P
(20:07:42) DracoFlameus: xD
(20:07:49) DracoFlameus: AT here as well
(20:07:50) zzorn_FI: Apachez is in the swedish PP afaik
(20:08:05) Aiarakoa_ES: let's get started
(20:08:11) Aiarakoa_ES: I suppose that, before coming here now
(20:08:14) Aiarakoa_ES: you read the briefings
(20:08:26) PDA is now known as PDA_AT
(20:08:36) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_parties_at_a_glance
(20:08:49) Aiarakoa_ES: DracoFlameus
(20:08:57) Aiarakoa_ES: Austrian briefing is still missing
(20:09:26) Aiarakoa_ES: with it there would be 10 out of 12 briefings available
(20:09:26) K`Tetch: I'm here sorta
(20:09:35) K`Tetch is now known as K`Tetch_US
(20:10:02) DracoFlameus: yeah, sry, we will take of that
(20:10:08) Aiarakoa_ES: well
(20:10:10) K`Tetch_US: and I also regged the channel the other day
(20:10:26) K`Tetch_US: only person i've set on it so far is combatt
(20:10:50) mode (+ooo Aiarakoa_ES bAdBoYz_AT DracoFlameus) by K`Tetch_US
(20:10:54) Aiarakoa_ES: I suggest to start structuring the manifesto
(20:11:01) mode (+ooo Dragu hyper_ch osh_AWAY) by K`Tetch_US
(20:11:05) mode (+o Roderick_AU) by K`Tetch_US
(20:11:08) Aiarakoa_ES: dividing it in subsections to make it easier to work on it
(20:11:41) Aiarakoa_ES: e.g., an initial one with a description about what do we are hear for, and the rest of subsections being
(20:11:51) K`Tetch_US: anyone here from the german party?
(20:11:57) K`Tetch_US: (and is anyone taking minutes)
(20:12:01) Edulix left the room (quit: Client exited).
(20:12:03) Aiarakoa_ES: one per ideological category, plus another one for non-core issues treatment
(20:12:28) Aiarakoa_ES: I'm afraid, K`Tetch, there are no german representatives here
(20:12:36) K`Tetch_US: ok, I'll hit helmut up now
(20:12:38) zzorn_FI: I guess we could write the initial section last, as a summary of the others.
(20:13:18) Aiarakoa_ES: fine, Andrew
(20:13:27) Aiarakoa_ES: I think it's a good choice, zzorn
(20:13:38) Aiarakoa_ES: what do you think about it, folks?
(20:13:54) Edulix [edulix@582521C8.20D4C624.7CE4EF25.IP] entered the room.
(20:14:15) zzorn_FI: sounds good to me
(20:14:22) K`Tetch_US: thats only to be expected
(20:14:50) Aiarakoa_ES: so let's gonna take profit from the briefings: let's gonna find out what do we have in common
(20:15:08) Aiarakoa_ES: and thus enlisting the sections
(20:15:30) Aiarakoa_ES: what do we have in common I think is a good starting point
(20:15:42) K`Tetch_US: reform of 'intellectual property'
(20:15:45) Aiarakoa_ES: after we have dealt with it, we will be able to deal with controversies
(20:15:56) Aiarakoa_ES: right, author's rights would be one category
(20:15:58) K`Tetch_US: lets start broad, and then try and narrow down
(20:16:03) Aiarakoa_ES: what others?
(20:16:10) Aiarakoa_ES: which others?
(20:16:23) Aiarakoa_ES: Patents
(20:16:24) K`Tetch_US: increased personal privacy/lack of government intrusion/survailance
(20:16:37) K`Tetch_US: as i said, intellectual property, which is patent, copyright trademark
(20:16:40) Aiarakoa_ES: right again, Andrew: Civil Rights and Liberties
(20:16:48) Aiarakoa_ES: mmm
(20:17:11) Aiarakoa_ES: I think author's rights should be treated separately from patents
(20:17:29) Aiarakoa_ES: as, from what I read from each pirate party, there may be controversies in both categories
(20:17:32) K`Tetch_US: well, as I said, start broad, we can split IP down into 3 sections
(20:17:41) bAdBoYz_AT: yeah, civil rights and liberties sounds generic..
(20:17:41) Aiarakoa_ES: fine for me
(20:17:53) bAdBoYz_AT: i think thats a good starting point..
(20:17:55) Aiarakoa_ES: and
(20:18:03) Aiarakoa_ES: there are two additional categories that, however
(20:18:06) Apachez: tipping point
(20:18:13) Aiarakoa_ES: weren't in all pirate parties:
(20:18:16) Aiarakoa_ES: - Information Society
(20:18:21) K`Tetch_US: ok, government transparancy and accountability?
(20:18:22) Apachez: the official meeting language should be swedish
(20:18:24) Aiarakoa_ES: - Government accountability
(20:18:44) K`Tetch_US: why Apachez?
(20:18:59) Apachez: because you should honor sweden, home of the pirates
(20:19:00) Roderick_AU: i suppose we should define what the PPI should be at some point, i.e. will it be a federation, or an association, how should parties be tied to it etc.
(20:19:00) Aiarakoa_ES: I suggest to initially include both as preliminary sections, and see where does it guide us
(20:19:03) Edulix left the room (quit: Client exited).
(20:19:15) Aiarakoa_ES: ja, apachez, ja
(20:19:16) Aiarakoa_ES: skol
(20:19:19) Aiarakoa_ES: :D
(20:19:31) Aiarakoa_ES: Henrik Larsson, etc
(20:19:46) Apachez: either you are with sweden or you are with the mpaa terrorists
(20:19:54) Roderick_AU: lol
(20:19:56) ***Aiarakoa_ES cannot speak Swedish; however, can speak English apart from Spanish
(20:20:00) Aiarakoa_ES: apachez xD
(20:20:07) K`Tetch_US: Apachez - while I'm gettin ok at starting to understand swedish, I can't speak it, same with spanish, italian, french and portugese (and german, to a very basic level)
(20:20:22) Edulix [edulix@582521C8.20D4C624.7CE4EF25.IP] entered the room.
(20:20:32) zzorn_FI: lets continue (in English)
(20:20:37) Aiarakoa_ES: coming back to the thing
(20:20:41) Aiue_SE: Common sense tells me it's better to stick with a language anyone can understand and at least make themselves understood using. ;)
(20:20:50) Aiue_SE: s/anyone/everyone
(20:20:51) Aiarakoa_ES: I suggest to preliminary include both sections
(20:21:03) Aiarakoa_ES: (Information Society, and Government Accountability)
(20:21:09) K`Tetch_US: both sections of what?
(20:21:14) K`Tetch_US: ah
(20:21:19) ***zzorn_FI nods
(20:21:21) K`Tetch_US: how about government transparancy
(20:21:29) Aiarakoa_ES: both section are not present in all pirate parties' briefings
(20:21:37) K`Tetch_US: or would you count that with accountability
(20:21:39) Aiarakoa_ES: government transparency and accountability, right, Andrew
(20:21:50) K`Tetch_US: ok
(20:21:51) Aiarakoa_ES: no problem with changing the tag :)
(20:21:55) Aiarakoa_ES: so
(20:22:02) Aiarakoa_ES: we have the initial section
(20:22:07) Aiarakoa_ES: five ideological sections
(20:22:13) Aiarakoa_ES: plus the non-core issues treatment
(20:22:14) Aiarakoa_ES: right?
(20:22:21) K`Tetch_US: yeah
(20:22:24) zzorn_FI: (are you editing it into the wiki on the fly?)
(20:22:32) Aiarakoa_ES: not yet
(20:22:35) Aiarakoa_ES: should I?
(20:22:44) Aiarakoa_ES: (I can if you want to :))
(20:22:48) zzorn_FI: nah, as long as you / someone keeps track of it
(20:23:05) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto#First_Draft
(20:23:20) Aiarakoa_ES: I can revisit the log after the meeting if you prefer it
(20:23:29) Aiarakoa_ES: let's proceed
(20:23:31) zzorn_FI: whichever is easiest for you
(20:23:40) Edulix left the room (quit: Client exited).
(20:23:45) Aiarakoa_ES: after leaving initial section for last
(20:23:53) K`Tetch_US: and we need to post the log of the meeting later too
(20:24:06) mode (+o zzorn_FI) by K`Tetch_US
(20:24:07) Edulix [edulix@582521C8.20D4C624.7CE4EF25.IP] entered the room.
(20:24:07) Aiarakoa_ES: I suggest, for each of the three common sections, to find as well the common points
(20:24:24) Aiarakoa_ES: (we would come later with Information Society, and Government Accountability and Transparency)
(20:24:29) Aiarakoa_ES: step by step
(20:24:31) Aiarakoa_ES: do you agree?
(20:24:46) K`Tetch_US: ok
(20:24:51) ***zzorn_FI nods
(20:25:04) Aiarakoa_ES: first one: Civil Rights and Liberties
(20:25:09) Aiarakoa_ES: after studying the briefings
(20:25:12) Aiarakoa_ES: I have this analysis
(20:25:15) Aiarakoa_ES: common points:
(20:25:18) Aiarakoa_ES: - privacy
(20:25:23) Edulix left the room (quit: Client exited).
(20:25:28) Aiarakoa_ES: common points (with nuances):
(20:25:40) Aiarakoa_ES: - taking human rights as a reference
(20:26:01) Aiarakoa_ES: - freedom of speech, pressumption of innocence, customers rights
(20:26:01) K`Tetch_US: oh, btw - in the who, can we give the position in the national party of each person
(20:26:14) Aiarakoa_ES: yes of course
(20:26:20) Aiarakoa_ES: it will serve to check my analysis :)
(20:26:25) DracoFlameus is now known as Draco_AT
(20:26:52) Aiarakoa_ES: - condemning the use of violence to promote political claims, as well as racism, sexism, etc
(20:26:58) Aiarakoa_ES: controversy
(20:27:12) Aiarakoa_ES: - fight against crime & terrorism compatible with human rights
(20:27:18) Aiarakoa_ES: - abolish antiterrorist laws
(20:27:26) Aiarakoa_ES: ...
(20:27:27) Aiarakoa_ES: that's it
(20:27:53) d4rkst0rm is now known as D4rKSt0rM_AT
(20:28:13) Edulix [edulix@582521C8.20D4C624.7CE4EF25.IP] entered the room.
(20:28:16) Aiarakoa_ES: if I was accurate in my analysis, I would suggest to inmediately pack the common point
(20:28:24) Aiarakoa_ES: debate the nuances on the other "common" points
(20:28:42) Aiarakoa_ES: and leave the controversy for the end, after having found the common points for all categories
(20:29:06) Aiarakoa_ES: (this way, we would have a working draft just in case we wouldn't have time to work with controversy before Stage One's deadline
(20:29:12) K`Tetch_US: right
(20:29:14) Aiarakoa_ES: having Stage Two to deal with controversy through amendments)
(20:29:54) Aiarakoa_ES: let's start debating nuances for this category? or first repeat the analysis for the other categories?
(20:30:18) K`Tetch_US: lets do the commonalities
(20:30:37) Aiarakoa_ES: commonalities?
(20:30:42) Aiarakoa_ES: you mean the first option?
(20:30:45) zzorn_FI: At least the Finnish pirate party program agrees with the common points in Civil rights and liberties.
(20:31:50) K`Tetch_US: commanlities - the common points
(20:31:53) Aiarakoa_ES: nuances were, e.g., Danish pirate party willing to get human rights as reference
(20:32:06) Aiarakoa_ES: but as defined in European Convention for Human Rights
(20:32:12) Aiarakoa_ES: while PIRATA uses UDHR as reference
(20:32:16) Aiarakoa_ES: (that kind of nuances)
(20:32:19) ***K`Tetch_US is sorry for the long $9 words 9forget y'all aint native english speakers)
(20:32:28) elmindreda [camilla@pp-3F77699F.cust.blixtvik.net] entered the room.
(20:33:17) Aiarakoa_ES: also, the nuances about freedom of speech or pressumption of innocence are that those concepts weren't present in all briefings
(20:33:26) Aiarakoa_ES: (though we may assume that we all defend such principles)
(20:33:55) bAdBoYz_AT: hmm... but what kind of nuances could be about freedom of speech etc?
(20:34:06) K`Tetch_US: there's a few
(20:34:32) K`Tetch_US: how far do you go to support it, and how do you deal with libel/slander
(20:34:34) Aiarakoa_ES: at least at the first layers of abstraction, Andrew
(20:34:38) Aiarakoa_ES: I think there arent
(20:34:53) Aiarakoa_ES: nuances will arise when talking about concrete measures, as you point now
(20:34:53) Edulix left the room (quit: Client exited).
(20:35:08) Aiarakoa_ES: however, at a Manifesto level, I think all of us would agree on freedom of speech as a principle
(20:35:08) K`Tetch_US: then the old scenario of 'fire in a crowded theatre'
(20:35:08) Aiarakoa_ES: :)
(20:35:22) Edulix [edulix@582521C8.20D4C624.7CE4EF25.IP] entered the room.
(20:36:09) Aiarakoa_ES: the third issue with nuances is condemning violence used to promote claims, and condemning racism, sexism, etc
(20:36:19) Aiarakoa_ES: (again, because of not being present in all pirate parties' briefings)
(20:36:26) ***zzorn_FI nods
(20:36:27) Roderick_AU: well, in australia freedom of speech isn't protected expressly by any law or bill of rights (which australia does not have)
(20:36:36) Roderick_AU: which might provide for problems i suppose.
(20:36:40) K`Tetch_US: UK doesn't either
(20:37:01) Aiarakoa_ES: is not always about local laws, but local parties principles
(20:37:08) Edulix left the room (quit: Client exited).
(20:37:09) K`Tetch_US: US does, but doesn't seem to adhere to them
(20:37:13) Aiarakoa_ES: it's about what does each party defends
(20:37:23) Aiarakoa_ES: (it uses to happen, Andrrew
(20:37:46) Aiarakoa_ES: we also have in Spain a beautiful Constitution that uses to not be enforced too often)
(20:38:16) Roderick_AU: well the uk has a bill of rights i believe.
(20:38:16) Aiarakoa_ES: there are other issues with nuances -I mean, have I forgot something-?
(20:38:21) Aiarakoa_ES: or may we start the debate?
(20:38:35) Edulix [edulix@582521C8.20D4C624.7CE4EF25.IP] entered the room.
(20:38:41) K`Tetch_US: nope Roderick_AU, it signed the european bill of human rights, but then legislates around a number of the points, like no-self incrimination
(20:39:26) ***K`Tetch_US is getting increasingly annoyed with andy+Pete over the lack of effort for the UK party
(20:39:51) Aiarakoa_ES: it's a pity that countries like UK or Italy
(20:39:55) Aiarakoa_ES: doesn't have a pirate party
(20:40:08) K`Tetch_US: italy does
(20:40:20) Aiarakoa_ES: legally constituted, actually active?
(20:40:20) K`Tetch_US: they just don't seem to want to play with the rest of us
(20:40:23) Aiarakoa_ES: oh
(20:40:40) K`Tetch_US: uk, has pete and andy, who are both on the list, but andy spends more time adding stories to the ppi site, than getting ANYTHING done for the uk
(20:41:15) K`Tetch_US: I got them the chance to speak at a deep packet inspection protest last wednesday, neither wanted to go to london and take part, or find anyone to take part with some ppuk banners
(20:42:03) Aiue_SE: Some activists, eh?
(20:42:12) K`Tetch_US: chance to mingle with members of the hosue of lords, and they weren't interested
(20:42:25) K`Tetch_US: the organiser owed me too, since i got the protest funded
(20:42:40) Schutti [Schutti@pp-1D3B77CE.vie.surfer.at] entered the room.
(20:43:26) Schutti is now known as Schutti_AT
(20:43:33) Aiarakoa_ES: myself I have the handicap of not living in Madrid nor Barcelona to participate in certain events
(20:43:59) Aiarakoa_ES: in PIRATA were trying to create regional groups, to be able to promote demonstrations and other activities
(20:44:20) Aiarakoa_ES: and returning to the thing, did I miss any issue, or may we start with the debate?
(20:44:22) K`Tetch_US: I'm 60 miles from atlanta, and I'm usually stuck with the kids, so i can't do anything really (trying to drum up support with a 4yo tagging along isn't easy)
(20:44:38) K`Tetch_US: qwhat was the common points for the transparancy/accountability
(20:45:21) Aiarakoa_ES: oh that was what I said before
(20:45:26) bAdBoYz_AT: i'd like to use more direct democraty...
(20:45:31) zzorn_FI: Aiarakoa_ES, we can proceed.  If we forgot something, it's bound to come up sooner or later
(20:45:34) Aiarakoa_ES: do we find the common points for the rest of categoryes before debating?
(20:45:37) AllanP [AllanP@pp-34E0D17C.student.uu.se] entered the room.
(20:45:46) AllanP left the room.
(20:45:55) K`Tetch_US: yes
(20:46:00) K`Tetch_US: as I said, lets do all the common points
(20:46:10) Aiarakoa_ES: ok
(20:46:10) zzorn_FI: yeah, common points first perhaps.  Then we can debate the rest of the time :)
(20:46:11) Aiarakoa_ES: then
(20:46:21) K`Tetch_US: get the easy quick stuff done, before we get bogged down in debate and tangental discussion
(20:46:35) Aiarakoa_ES: patents
(20:46:48) Aiarakoa_ES: & trademarks
(20:46:58) K`Tetch_US: again, two seperate things
(20:47:02) Aiarakoa_ES: patents
(20:47:06) Aiarakoa_ES: commons
(20:47:13) Aiarakoa_ES: - remove software patents
(20:47:17) Aiarakoa_ES: commons with nuances
(20:47:30) Aiarakoa_ES: - reduce duration of patents
(20:47:41) Aiarakoa_ES: - remove biopatents (patenting life beings)
(20:48:16) Aiarakoa_ES: - aiming to remove monopolies created from the patent system -through the patent system reform-
(20:48:26) Roderick_AU: the swedish party seems to want to eventually phase out patents completely doesn't it?
(20:48:28) Aiarakoa_ES: controversies
(20:48:39) Aiarakoa_ES: - abolish in the long term all patents
(20:49:00) Aiarakoa_ES: - reform patents instead of removing all patents -removing some types but not all types
(20:49:07) Aiarakoa_ES: - abolish pharmaceutical patents
(20:49:14) Aiarakoa_ES: trademarks
(20:49:25) Dragu: oh crap
(20:49:30) Dragu: is the meeting over yet
(20:49:31) Aiarakoa_ES: (no common points)
(20:49:38) Aiarakoa_ES: common points with nuances
(20:49:52) Aiarakoa_ES: - differentiated treatment for author's rights, patents and trademarks
(20:50:10) Aiarakoa_ES: - not allowing registering as trade mark works under copyright
(20:50:10) zzorn_FI: Dragu, nope, we are going through common points in our programs.  We covered Civil Rights and Liberties, now going through IP.
(20:50:14) Aiarakoa_ES: (no controversies)
(20:50:24) Aiarakoa_ES: ...
(20:50:25) Aiarakoa_ES: that's it
(20:50:39) Aiarakoa_ES: do you agree with the analysis for Patents and trademarks?
(20:50:49) K`Tetch_US: yes
(20:50:55) Aiarakoa_ES: fine
(20:50:58) Aiarakoa_ES: next
(20:51:05) Dragu is now known as Dragu_FI
(20:51:09) K`Tetch_US: well, lets put it this way, i'm behind the common points, and i have some problem witht he controvosies
(20:51:25) K`Tetch_US: which is the point
(20:51:33) Aiarakoa_ES: with which controversies?
(20:51:47) K`Tetch_US: thats the point, its a controvosy to deal with later
(20:52:15) Aiarakoa_ES: don't understand
(20:52:26) K`Tetch_US: the common points are something we should all agree on
(20:52:31) K`Tetch_US: thats what makes them common
(20:52:35) Aiarakoa_ES: right
(20:52:52) K`Tetch_US: the controvosies are things some don't aggree with, and i have issues with some of those controvosies, so yes, they're placed correctly
(20:53:03) Aiarakoa_ES: ok :)
(20:53:09) K`Tetch_US: sorry I'm being wordy, I'm working on my study at another computer at the same time
(20:53:10) Aiarakoa_ES: then you agre with the analysis?
(20:53:14) Aiarakoa_ES: don't worry :)
(20:53:21) Roderick_AU: yes
(20:53:27) Aiarakoa_ES: next: Author's rights
(20:53:36) forester [ichbinwitz@pp-76D37746.cust.tele2.at] entered the room.
(20:53:42) Aiarakoa_ES: common points
(20:53:45) zzorn_FI: Aiarakoa_ES, Yep, agree with the analysis on patents & trademarks, although the Finnish party program doesn't mention trademarks.
(20:53:46) Dragu_FI: are the reasons to the controversies listed on the wiki?
(20:53:57) Aiarakoa_ES: zzorn, hence the nuances
(20:54:02) Dragu_FI: trademarks are a good thing when used correctly
(20:54:07) zzorn_FI: kk
(20:54:08) Aiarakoa_ES: nuances means that not all pirate parties include those points with nuances
(20:54:12) Aiarakoa_ES: :)
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(20:54:39) Aiarakoa_ES: author's rights
(20:54:42) Aiarakoa_ES: common points
(20:55:01) Aiarakoa_ES: - reducing term for copyright (i.e., commercial author's rights)
(20:55:11) Aiarakoa_ES: -common points with nuances
(20:55:13) Aiarakoa_ES: common points with nuances
(20:55:18) Aiarakoa_ES: - no to DRM
(20:55:31) Aiarakoa_ES: - no to any kind of levies (like private copying levies)
(20:55:45) Aiarakoa_ES: - no to using expressions like "intellectual property"
(20:56:01) Aiarakoa_ES: - balance between author's rights and citizens' rights on culture
(20:56:12) Aiarakoa_ES: - free non-commercial culture sharing
(20:56:22) Aiarakoa_ES: - promoting P2P-like tools to promote culture
(20:56:35) Aiarakoa_ES: - promote culture, in a general sense
(20:56:43) Aiarakoa_ES: (no controversies found)
(20:56:47) Aiarakoa_ES: ...
(20:56:54) zzorn_FI: me nods
(20:56:59) zzorn_FI: + /
(20:57:04) Aiarakoa_ES: there are, however, a bunch of points with nuances
(20:57:22) Aiarakoa_ES: do you agree with the analysis?
(20:57:35) K`Tetch_US: yes
(20:57:37) Roderick_AU: the term of reduction might be a nuance i.e. 5 years, as opposed to 14.
(20:57:49) Aiarakoa_ES: yes, Roderick, you're right
(20:57:50) Aiarakoa_ES: though
(20:57:54) Aiarakoa_ES: the idea of reducing the term
(20:58:02) Dragu_FI: yes I agree
(20:58:02) Roderick_AU: is common, yes.
(20:58:02) Aiarakoa_ES: is shared by all of us
(20:58:12) K`Tetch_US: is common, just the end point is different
(20:58:12) Dragu_FI: thats good to hear then
(20:58:16) Aiarakoa_ES: is like Andrew and I talked about freedom of speech
(20:58:26) Aiarakoa_ES: concrete proposals will require intense debates
(20:58:34) Aiarakoa_ES: however, we agree on the general concept :)
(20:58:47) Roderick_AU: we wouldn't be in pirate parties otherwise ;)
(20:58:52) Aiarakoa_ES: that's it :)
(20:59:07) Aiarakoa_ES: next?
(20:59:19) zzorn_FI: go ahead
(20:59:38) Aiarakoa_ES: now we go with the two categories not enlisted by all pirate parties:
(20:59:49) Aiarakoa_ES: Information Society and Government Transparency and Accountability
(21:00:01) Aiarakoa_ES: as they're not enlisted by all pirate parties
(21:00:16) Aiarakoa_ES: I'll rather explain what does each party briefs about them
(21:00:17) Aiarakoa_ES: ok?
(21:00:20) Dragu_FI: ok
(21:00:35) Aiarakoa_ES: Information Society
(21:00:48) Aiarakoa_ES: - Piraten Partei Deutschland
(21:00:55) Aiarakoa_ES: * avoiding monopolies on communications
(21:01:39) Aiarakoa_ES: * increasing infrastructures to make access to information technology
(21:01:42) Aiarakoa_ES: - PIRATA
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(21:02:02) Roderick_ [Roderick@5AE94292.AB1804AB.2B25DC93.IP] entered the room.
(21:02:13) Aiarakoa_ES: * universalize the Information Society
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(21:02:20) Roderick_ [Roderick@5AE94292.AB1804AB.2B25DC93.IP] entered the room.
(21:02:22) Edulix [edulix@582521C8.20D4C624.7CE4EF25.IP] entered the room.
(21:02:25) Aiarakoa_ES: * net neutrality
(21:02:33) Aiarakoa_ES: * FLOSS in the Public Office
(21:02:44) K`Tetch_US: now theres political speak if ever there was one "* universalize the Information Society"
(21:02:45) Aiarakoa_ES: (no more pirate parties deal with IS issue)
(21:02:46) Dragu_FI: (can you specify what you mean by "to universalize the information society" ? )
(21:02:54) Aiarakoa_ES: one sec
(21:02:59) Aiarakoa_ES: it's not about making it free
(21:03:04) Aiarakoa_ES: but
(21:03:10) Aiarakoa_ES: (and I quote PIRATA Statute)
(21:03:16) Dragu_FI: Aiarakoa_ES: actually FIN does but has probably been bad at stating this
(21:03:21) Dragu_FI: (like many others)
(21:03:48) Aiarakoa_ES: "We will work to make Internet as universal as nowadays radio or television are, and also to make every home, every business, every educational centre in Spain able to enjoy this information and culture universalization tool, without any kind of discrimination due to social, personal or geographic condition"
(21:04:26) Aiarakoa_ES: (it's about avoiding the digital divide, mainly)
(21:04:27) K`Tetch_US: ah, access available to all, basically
(21:04:35) Roderick_: basically just dissemination of the internet.
(21:04:36) Dragu_FI: Could that not be simplified to just "universal access to the internet and information" ?
(21:04:37) K`Tetch_US: but not subsidised access required
(21:04:41) Aiarakoa_ES: available, but not necesarily free
(21:04:42) Aiarakoa_ES: that's it
(21:04:52) K`Tetch_US: universal ability to acecss the net
(21:05:01) Dragu_FI: my gut feeling tells me all PP's can agree on that
(21:05:02) zzorn_FI: or availability of it
(21:05:05) Aiarakoa_ES: "* universalize the Information Society" was a brief approach
(21:05:14) Roderick_AU left the room (quit: Ping timeout).
(21:05:15) Aiarakoa_ES: though Dragu's approach would also serve :)
(21:05:19) K`Tetch_US: its very political and doesn't get the meaning across
(21:05:23) Roderick_ is now known as Roderick_AU
(21:05:35) K`Tetch_US: yeah, having more than one ISP to pick from would be nice :-)
(21:05:44) Aiarakoa_ES: one sec
(21:05:56) Aiarakoa_ES: and I'll proceed with Government Accountability and Transparency
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(21:07:46) Aiarakoa_ES: back again :)
(21:08:15) arek__pl [arek_pl@pp-C1BF78AB.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] entered the room.
(21:08:20) Aiarakoa_ES: Government Accountability and Transparency
(21:08:26) Aiarakoa_ES: - Piratpartiet
(21:08:49) Aiarakoa_ES: * regulating lobbyism
(21:09:05) Aiarakoa_ES: * defending openness (don't know exactly what does it mean)
(21:09:15) Aiarakoa_ES: * Transparency of Public Office
(21:09:32) Edulix [edulix@582521C8.20D4C624.7CE4EF25.IP] entered the room.
(21:09:40) Aiarakoa_ES: * Any public document not containing private data should be made public
(21:09:47) Aiarakoa_ES: - PPUS
(21:09:58) arek_pl left the room (quit: Ping timeout).
(21:10:15) K`Tetch_US: spot the ray line (second one)
(21:10:35) Aiarakoa_ES: * Governments required to answer to the people
(21:10:53) Aiarakoa_ES: * "Shame is good when one has done the wrong thing; and is a good motivator, when properly done, to prevent corruption" (?)
(21:11:00) K`Tetch_US: yep, that one
(21:11:25) Aiarakoa_ES: * Accountability should include the risk of loss of office, even if no criminal charges are filed.
(21:11:44) K`Tetch_US: basically means 'we shouldn't be afraid to publiscally shame people that break the public trust'
(21:11:46) Aiarakoa_ES: * Government officials should not be immune to the law (thus Andy is a Berlusconi or Juan Carlos I fan xD)
(21:12:11) K`Tetch_US: Ray wrote all these, not me :-)
(21:12:17) Aiarakoa_ES: was I joke
(21:12:23) K`Tetch_US: that was his job, as operatiosn officer
(21:12:26) Aiarakoa_ES: I mean that the King of Spain has no legal responsibilities
(21:12:39) Aiarakoa_ES: e.g., Juan Carlos I would may walk through Gran Via of Madrid
(21:12:41) Aiarakoa_ES: carry a gun
(21:12:52) Aiarakoa_ES: shot anyone with hundreds of witnesses
(21:13:04) K`Tetch_US: it's more in reference to the likes of bush/cheney or karl rove
(21:13:08) Aiarakoa_ES: and anyway he wouldn't be arrested nor brought to justice
(21:13:18) K`Tetch_US: queen's the same in the uk
(21:13:41) Aiarakoa_ES: thanks god (or the FSM xD) that they're not psycho ... :)
(21:13:53) Dragu_FI: I can sum up the finnish stances unless you already have some 
(21:13:55) Aiarakoa_ES: - Piraten Partei Deutschland
(21:14:18) K`Tetch_US: elizabeth married phillip - if thats not psycho, thats at least clinical depression, and charles+camilla
(21:14:19) Aiarakoa_ES: * Authorities reporting when required to; exceptions: national security and privacy
(21:14:44) Aiarakoa_ES: * Create a principle of publicity
(21:14:50) Aiarakoa_ES: * Make politic decisions transparant
(21:14:54) Aiarakoa_ES: - Piraatti Puolue
(21:14:56) K`Tetch_US: (no wonder prince andrew's in the Uk version of the Navy seals)
(21:15:24) Aiarakoa_ES: * Improve democratic decision-making at the EU
(21:15:32) Aiarakoa_ES: * Improve openness (?) at the EU
(21:15:41) Aiarakoa_ES: ...
(21:15:45) Dragu_FI: * Transparent funding in politics
(21:15:53) Dragu_FI: * General transparency in political process
(21:15:55) Aiarakoa_ES: that's all regarding those two categories
(21:16:04) Aiarakoa_ES: (that's not in your briefing :) )
(21:16:12) Dragu_FI: * Advisory diversity in legislative preparation
(21:16:18) Aiarakoa_ES: weren't able to figure it out
(21:16:22) Aiarakoa_ES: wan't able to figure it out
(21:16:23) Aiarakoa_ES: wasn't able to figure it out
(21:16:31) Dragu_FI: ~unofficial/not stated : to ensure that statesmen do not hold unproportional numbers of offices simultaneously
(21:16:50) Dragu_FI: yes, we've been quite lazy at recording stuff there recently due to extreme workload with campaigning (especially me)
(21:17:46) Aiarakoa_ES: I suggest to debate first the common points (with nuances) from common categories
(21:18:02) Aiarakoa_ES: later to debate those two categories not enlisted by all pirate parties
(21:18:12) Aiarakoa_ES: and finally the controversial issues from common categories
(21:18:30) Aiarakoa_ES: oh
(21:18:44) Aiarakoa_ES: there is one remaining category: non-core issues treatment
(21:18:47) Aiarakoa_ES: though ...
(21:18:55) Aiarakoa_ES: ... it lays within controversial issues xD
(21:20:03) K`Tetch_US: it's ALL contraversial there
(21:20:20) Dragu_FI: can you give us a brief?
(21:20:46) K`Tetch_US: I think there's as many different methods/opinions there as parties that have submitted
(21:21:38) Aiarakoa_ES: it's hard to make a brief
(21:21:50) Aiarakoa_ES: as only 3-4 parties have explained how do they (we) deal with it
(21:22:09) K`Tetch_US: some, like us, have no formal method, it depends on the specific case
(21:22:26) Aiarakoa_ES: there is the Swedish approach
(21:22:40) K`Tetch_US: the 'no i don't wanna touch that' aproach
(21:22:59) Aiarakoa_ES: The Swedish Piratpartiet does not take a stance in non-core issues. Candidates or representatives of the party may not express opinions of non-core issues in the name of the party.
(21:22:59) Aiarakoa_ES: Piratpartiet instead aims to form alliances with other political parties. Our bartering is that we give our allies our votes, if they pull through such reforms as are among our core-issues. That or those parties which agree to give us the most support with our issues, will get our votes in parliament. 
(21:23:12) Aiarakoa_ES: the Danish approach
(21:23:53) Aiarakoa_ES: as long as I understood from Ole's mails, not quite different from Swedish one
(21:24:06) Aiarakoa_ES: (using non-core issues as a exchange item in parliamentary dealings)
(21:24:07) K`Tetch_US: The Us approach is basically 'it's down to the candidate, based on the wishes of their constituants'
(21:24:25) Aiarakoa_ES: PIRATA then would be simmilar to US approach
(21:24:26) Aiarakoa_ES: ILCs
(21:25:06) K`Tetch_US: thats also the way of the uk, in general
(21:25:12) Aiarakoa_ES: ILCs means individuals & civic groups making proposals supported by signatures
(21:25:16) Aiarakoa_ES: with three requirements:
(21:25:22) Aiarakoa_ES: - enough signatures
(21:25:36) Aiarakoa_ES: - enough consenssus (not 100.000 signatures for and 90.000 against)
(21:26:05) Aiarakoa_ES: - compliant with PIRATA ideology, laws (even if proposals aim to change those laws) and human rights
(21:27:00) Aiarakoa_ES: and about parliamentary negotiations
(21:27:07) K`Tetch_US: as long as it doesn't go agaisnt our core issues, I have no problem with two PPUS congressmen taking opposite sides of an issue, if that's the will of the people they represent, since, we're supposed to be their voice in government
(21:27:08) Aiarakoa_ES: no alliances, but case by case dealing
(21:27:20) K`Tetch_US: BUT, we won't be poll-chasing
(21:28:09) Aiarakoa_ES: to reach consenssus on non-core issues treatment
(21:28:19) Aiarakoa_ES: I would be willing to make two different proposals
(21:28:30) Aiarakoa_ES: one would be PIRATA approach in an international scope
(21:28:46) Aiarakoa_ES: the other one, for non-core issues to allow representatives for each pirate party
(21:28:51) Aiarakoa_ES: in the international organisms
(21:29:10) Roderick_AU: perhaps its something the PPI shouldn't make any statement on?
(21:29:13) Aiarakoa_ES: to internally decide their vote (according to how they work within their countries)
(21:29:25) K`Tetch_US: yeah, its more of an issue per party
(21:29:52) Aiarakoa_ES: I don't like option two because of thinking it would leaves us less strength to make parliamentary deals
(21:30:04) Aiarakoa_ES: however, looking at such controversy regarding this issue
(21:30:07) Roderick_AU: I don't see why an international manifesto should be bogged down by what seems to be an intrinsically internal and national matter.
(21:30:11) Aiarakoa_ES: I cannot find, personally, other options
(21:30:28) Aiarakoa_ES: Roderick
(21:30:38) Aiarakoa_ES: it's a national matter ... except when talking about
(21:30:39) Aiarakoa_ES: UN
(21:30:41) Aiarakoa_ES: EU
(21:30:42) Aiarakoa_ES: WIPO
(21:30:52) Aiarakoa_ES: whatever international organisms
(21:31:24) Aiarakoa_ES: if more than two pirate parties
(21:31:33) Aiarakoa_ES: regardless of the continent where they are from
(21:31:39) Dragu_FI: I am entirely of the opinion that the manifesto or PPI for that matter shouldn't concern itself with the technicalities of national parliamentarism when it doesnt affect other countries in any obvious way
(21:31:42) Aiarakoa_ES: have to decide in any international organism on non-core issues
(21:31:50) Roderick_AU: but you are talking about political brokering, which is something that should be resolved behind party doors.
(21:32:02) Aiarakoa_ES: that's right when talking about technicalities
(21:32:03) Aiarakoa_ES: however
(21:32:05) Aiarakoa_ES: in the manifesto
(21:32:16) Aiarakoa_ES: if a manifesto means "we're here and we're going to make this"
(21:32:27) Aiarakoa_ES: the reader would wonder "what about the rest of issues"
(21:32:31) Aiarakoa_ES: ( I think the reader would )
(21:32:51) Aiarakoa_ES: if I'm right, then we should say something about it in the manifesto :)
(21:32:54) Dragu_FI: yes but I don't think the non-core methodology is even relevant to the pirate part in the manifesto
(21:33:01) Aiarakoa_ES: yes you're right
(21:33:11) Aiarakoa_ES: I just was point how controversial it is :)
(21:33:16) Aiarakoa_ES: I just was pointing how controversial it is :)
(21:33:22) Dragu_FI: I think we can informally or formally agree or hope to agree on something within the PPI, but this should be included in the manifesto
(21:33:23) Roderick_AU: a simple statement like "the party will confine itself to [[list categories]]"
(21:33:58) Dragu_FI: As I see it, it shouldnt be a pirate party manifesto, but a manifesto that all supporters of the idea can embrace regardless of being involved in parliamentary politics or not
(21:34:23) Dragu_FI: it should certainly concern itself with politics because the pirate movement is about politics
(21:34:38) Dragu_FI: but not exactly how whatever needs to be done should be done
(21:34:39) bAdBoYz_AT: sry, my lan cord got off...
(21:34:45) Aiarakoa_ES: I have a doubt about Roderick's approach:
(21:34:50) Aiarakoa_ES: if you merely say that
(21:35:17) Aiarakoa_ES: wouldn't it seem contradictory with the pirate parties activity each time that we take any stance on non-core issues
(21:35:26) Aiarakoa_ES: (in a national scope, or international scope)
(21:35:33) Dragu_FI: how do you mean?
(21:35:43) Aiarakoa_ES: I think that statement should explain
(21:36:09) Aiarakoa_ES: - that it's not due to us not caring about non-core issues, but due to us focusing on what we have consenssus on
(21:37:00) K`Tetch_US: its down to how best each national aprty wants to deal with the issue of 'representation of the populace' for issues outside the core
(21:37:16) Aiarakoa_ES: - that's not the party, but the party's ideology, what confines itself into the concrete ideological categories
(21:37:19) Dragu_FI: I don't see how taking a stance in pirate politics contradicts the freedom of dealing with non-core issues as each party sees fit, as long as the pirate things are the ore issue
(21:37:23) Dragu_FI: core*
(21:37:39) Aiarakoa_ES: what I mean
(21:37:45) Aiarakoa_ES: is that I think of the manifesto
(21:37:52) Aiarakoa_ES: as a greeting card from PPI
(21:37:58) Aiarakoa_ES: what the ... is PPI?
(21:38:02) Aiarakoa_ES: "take and read the manifesto"
(21:38:03) Aiarakoa_ES: :)
(21:38:11) Aiarakoa_ES: so 
(21:38:15) Dragu_FI: a greeting card from the PPI, to whom?
(21:38:24) Aiarakoa_ES: to the entire world
(21:38:31) K`Tetch_US: right, but that greetings card will be presented to the national voters, by that parties PP
(21:38:32) Aiarakoa_ES: to everyone to allow them to know us
(21:38:36) Dragu_FI: politicians? Pirate parties? citizen in general?
(21:38:45) K`Tetch_US: *by that COUNTRY's PP
(21:38:46) Aiarakoa_ES: citizens in general
(21:38:52) Roderick_AU: Well perhaps the PPI should be defined, because I'm not really sure myself as to the intention of its function.
(21:39:07) K`Tetch_US: so, each national party will add it's own 'non-core' method to their national version of the ppi
(21:39:10) K`Tetch_US: menifesto
(21:39:34) Dragu_FI: Then I think the manifesto should concern itself as little as possible with the technicalities of parliamentary politics. I think we can pretty much leave out the entire mention of non-core issues
(21:39:54) Roderick_AU: I agree.
(21:40:07) Aiarakoa_ES: I rather think that the explanation of that it's not due to us not caring about non-core issues, but due to us focusing on what we have consenssus on is needed
(21:40:24) Aiarakoa_ES: such explanation contains no technicality
(21:40:34) Dragu_FI: discussing parliamentary technicalities is what our common documents are for
(21:40:38) Dragu_FI: not the pirate manifesto
(21:40:54) Aiarakoa_ES: where is the technicality in that statement?
(21:41:25) Aiarakoa_ES: manifesto talks about A, B, C, D, E; why not about other letters? because of (that statement)
(21:41:31) Dragu_FI: Aiarakoa_ES: nowhere in that statement, but that statement is so vague it can be interpreted in many ways
(21:41:39) Aiarakoa_ES: there is no technicality in it
(21:41:43) Dragu_FI: ok, so what you mean is we should umm
(21:41:47) Dragu_FI: elaborate
(21:41:54) Dragu_FI: on why we don't mention the other letters?
(21:42:05) Aiarakoa_ES: I think so
(21:42:16) Roderick_AU: Non core issues can be very culturally relative, however reform of IP, human rights etc is not.
(21:42:20) Aiarakoa_ES: actually in PIRATA we think so according to the reaction of people who debate with us in Internet
(21:42:28) Aiarakoa_ES: when news from PIRATA arise in the Internet media
(21:42:45) Aiarakoa_ES: they always ask us why only those issues
(21:42:47) Dragu_FI: how do you intend to do that without creating lots of technicalities? By just saying "we let the parties decide" or?
(21:43:07) Aiarakoa_ES: how? just sticking to that statement's line
(21:43:10) Draco_AT is now known as Draco_afk
(21:43:23) Aiarakoa_ES: we, the pirate parties, agree on the core issues
(21:43:33) Aiarakoa_ES: and don't have consenssus on the non core issues
(21:43:36) Dragu_FI: And if we are to elaborate on that, then I must make clear that I see no reason to make that elaboration limited to parties, but should be appliable from everything to citizens to presidency
(21:43:38) Aiarakoa_ES: so we prefer to focus on the core issues
(21:44:09) Aiarakoa_ES: don't understand that
(21:44:16) Dragu_FI: what I mean is
(21:44:38) Dragu_FI: If we are to define that "Being a Pie Rat is about A,B,C and D"
(21:45:15) Dragu_FI: Then our way of elaborating on "why not E, F G...."
(21:45:22) Dragu_FI: should not even make a mention of the word "party"
(21:45:31) Aiarakoa_ES: no problem on that :)
(21:45:36) Dragu_FI: ok good
(21:45:49) Aiarakoa_ES: actually this is all about the pirate MOVEMENT, right?
(21:45:59) Dragu_FI: yes, that is my point
(21:46:07) Aiarakoa_ES: thus no problem on that
(21:46:16) Aiarakoa_ES: well
(21:46:24) Aiarakoa_ES: before further discussion
(21:46:28) Dragu_FI: I just had to ascertain that we agree on that
(21:46:48) Aiarakoa_ES: how do we approach the debate on all categories?
(21:46:50) K`Tetch_US: the way I've always thought of it is this "a political party shouldn't be tied to the positions of one man, or even of the party committee. We have a common set of issues, but beyond that, why should I force my opinoins of people all over the country on, say, abortion, because they happen to agree with me on government accountability."
(21:47:10) Aiarakoa_ES: I agree with that, ANdrw
(21:47:27) Aiarakoa_ES: foundations of democracy, and beyond that, it's up to citizens to decide about :)
(21:47:45) Roderick_AU: agreed :)
(21:47:58) Aiarakoa_ES: as I said
(21:47:58) Dragu_FI: Aiarakoa_ES: do you mean "approach" as in whether we should just discard everything that is controversial or start fighting or?
(21:48:07) Aiarakoa_ES: no no
(21:48:13) Aiarakoa_ES: I mean where should we start from
(21:48:22) K`Tetch_US: I live in the bible belt, so religion's big here (to the point no alcohol's sold on sundays, and you can't sell beer within such a distance from a church)
(21:48:28) Aiarakoa_ES: I suggest first the common points with nuances, from the common categories
(21:48:37) Aiarakoa_ES: then, the two categories not enlisted
(21:48:38) K`Tetch_US: so the pro-religeon bit here, wouldn't fly in, say, new york
(21:48:44) Aiarakoa_ES: and finally, the controversial points from common categories
(21:48:45) Aiarakoa_ES: do you agree?
(21:48:58) Dragu_FI: something like that
(21:49:07) Aiarakoa_ES: may we make a break to have dinner?
(21:49:15) Aiarakoa_ES: (or breakfast
(21:49:15) K`Tetch_US: okies
(21:49:16) Aiarakoa_ES: or lunch
(21:49:17) Roderick_AU: or breakfast :P
(21:49:18) Dragu_FI: how long?
(21:49:20) Aiarakoa_ES: depending on the time xD)
(21:49:21) Roderick_AU: lol
(21:49:32) Dragu_FI: 22:50 here (10:50 PM)
(21:49:40) K`Tetch_US: breakfast for rod, a late lunch for me 9probably just a beer and a sandwich)
(21:49:41) Roderick_AU: 5.50 AM here
(21:49:41) Aiarakoa_ES: maybe ... 25 minutes?
(21:49:52) Dragu_FI: ok, thats agreeable
(21:49:54) Roderick_AU: sounds good, i need a cup of coffee
(21:49:56) Aiarakoa_ES: ok
(21:50:01) Aiarakoa_ES is now known as AiaraHavingDinner
(21:50:40) Dragu_FI has changed the topic to: http://www.pp-international.net/ | Meeting continues at 20:15 UTC