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Difference between revisions of "Pirate Manifesto IRC meeting 20080724"

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(After the break)
 
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=== After the break ===
 
=== After the break ===
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<pre>
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(22:14:03) Dragu_FI: so
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(22:14:23) K`Tetch_US: trying to get a german or dutch rep here
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(22:14:32) Dragu_FI: k
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(22:16:18) AiaraHavingDinner: hi
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(22:16:25) AiaraHavingDinner is now known as Aiarakoa_ESA
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(22:16:27) Aiarakoa_ESA is now known as Aiarakoa_ES
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(22:18:37) osh_DK: hi
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(22:18:49) Dragu_FI: hi
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(22:18:58) osh_DK: i understand that you are discussing the basic document structure
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(22:19:14) osh_DK: anybody entering this into the wiki?
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(22:19:16) bAdBoYz_AT: wb
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(22:19:25) Dragu_FI: osh_DK: no, afaik
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(22:19:33) osh_DK: thanks, sorry im late
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(22:19:56) Aiarakoa_ES: not yet, Ole, first we find out common points
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(22:19:58) Dragu_FI has changed the topic to: http://www.pp-international.net/ | Break is over
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(22:20:00) Aiarakoa_ES: common points with nuances
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(22:20:09) Aiarakoa_ES: and controversial points
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(22:20:19) Aiarakoa_ES: now we're going to debate common points with nuances
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(22:20:34) Aiarakoa_ES: later, Information Society, and Govenrment Transparency and Accountability
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(22:20:41) Aiarakoa_ES: and finally the controversial points
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(22:21:42) Aiarakoa_ES: let's start with the same order that we followed before
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(22:21:49) Aiarakoa_ES: Civil Rights and Liberties
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(22:21:52) bAdBoYz_AT: ok, then lets wait for some minutes for the others..
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(22:22:01) Roderick_AU: present
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(22:22:07) Dragu_FI: present
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(22:22:09) Aiarakoa_ES: ok
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(22:22:50) K`Tetch_US: here, kinda
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(22:24:11) Roderick_AU: while we're waiting, with copyright, is there any contention re: moral rights and economic rights?
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(22:24:34) Dragu_FI: can you be more specific?
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(22:24:43) Roderick_AU: or is that just an arbitrary 5 year reduction?
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(22:24:59) osh_DK: i think we all agree that "droit moral" should be kept
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(22:25:25) Roderick_AU: ok
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(22:25:29) Aiarakoa_ES: yes
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(22:25:39) Aiarakoa_ES: we were talking about material (commercial) rights
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(22:25:40) Roderick_AU: good, good. wasn't sure.
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(22:27:56) osh_DK: should we continue?
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(22:28:20) Roderick_AU: i think so
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(22:28:51) bAdBoYz_AT: me too..
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(22:29:07) Dragu_FI: yes
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(22:29:22) Aiarakoa_ES: ok
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(22:29:25) Aiarakoa_ES: Civil Rights and Liberties
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(22:29:26) ***zzorn_FI looks in for a bit again
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(22:30:11) Aiarakoa_ES: common points:
 +
(22:30:18) Aiarakoa_ES: (with nuances)
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(22:30:30) Aiarakoa_ES: - taking human rights as a reference
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(22:30:30) Aiarakoa_ES: - freedom of speech, pressumption of innocence, customers rights
 +
(22:30:37) Aiarakoa_ES: - condemning the use of violence to promote political claims, as well as racism, sexism, etc
 +
(22:30:44) Aiarakoa_ES: here we are
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(22:31:54) osh_DK: as for human rights, some refer to the UN declaration, while some refer to the european declaration
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(22:32:25) osh_DK: imho no big problem - we can just refer to "human rights" in the manifesto
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(22:32:36) Dragu_FI: the european one is slightly more restrictive I think
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(22:32:43) Aiarakoa_ES: I agree, dragu
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(22:32:44) osh_DK: it is
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(22:33:04) Dragu_FI: such as stating that governments have the full right to limit political activity of foreigners etc
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(22:33:52) Aiarakoa_ES: considering that this is a worldwide text
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(22:34:00) Aiarakoa_ES: that EU Member States are also UDHR signatories
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(22:34:21) Dragu_FI: yes, thats a good point
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(22:34:25) Aiarakoa_ES: I think both european and non-european pirate parties would feel more comfortable with UDHR
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(22:34:41) Dragu_FI: absolutely
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(22:34:42) osh_DK: that makes sense, Carlos
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(22:34:42) Roderick_AU: agree
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(22:34:48) bAdBoYz_AT: yes....
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(22:35:05) osh_DK: but why specify? we are drafting a manifesto, not a law text
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(22:35:40) Dragu_FI: we might just go with "human rights" as well, although it leaves room for interpretation
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(22:35:53) elmindreda left the room (qcow).
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(22:36:16) Aiarakoa_ES: actually what are human rights?
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(22:36:19) Aiarakoa_ES: I mean
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(22:36:26) ***Aiue is away.. brbliaw [p!on]
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(22:36:40) Aiarakoa_ES: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_of_Human_Rights
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(22:37:03) Dragu_FI: interesting use of the term
 +
(22:37:34) Aiarakoa_ES: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights
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(22:37:45) Aiarakoa_ES: http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
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(22:38:00) Aiarakoa_ES: abstracting is good to start, but after starting
 +
(22:38:26) Aiarakoa_ES: in some issues certain concrete statements are required, otherwise we wouldn't exactly know what we would be talking about
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(22:38:36) osh_DK: We avoid a lot of controversy by not chosing a specific one of them
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(22:38:51) Aiarakoa_ES: sure
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(22:39:08) Aiarakoa_ES: and we would may avoid debate about the nuances for all categories
 +
(22:39:15) Aiarakoa_ES: it would speed the process
 +
(22:39:28) osh_DK: We can still speak of specific human rights without specifying a particular declaration
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(22:39:53) Aiarakoa_ES: which ones?
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(22:39:59) K`Tetch_US: but when they ask 'what rights' what's the answer
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(22:40:01) Dragu_FI: yes, though I think many of our direct stances on human rights are directly derived from our stances on civil rights, society of rights/law and democracy
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(22:40:16) K`Tetch_US: and as someone said to me months ago 'you know anyone that says they're AGAINST human rights?
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(22:40:17) Dragu_FI: (since they are in obvious dependency relationships to other, more basic rights)
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(22:40:34) Aiarakoa_ES: I know a few politicians, Andrew
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(22:40:45) Dragu_FI: "Oh I'm definately against change for the better"
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(22:40:45) K`Tetch_US: they actually say that, outright?
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(22:40:57) zzorn_FI: K`Tetch_US, good point, just saying that we are for human rights is not carrying that much information
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(22:41:14) Aiarakoa_ES: depends on the day xD
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(22:41:18) Dragu_FI: everyone claims to be for human rights I think
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(22:41:25) Dragu_FI: (most, that is)
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(22:41:34) Aiarakoa_ES: those politicians rely on the belief of voters having a short-term memory :)
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(22:41:38) bAdBoYz_AT: yes
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(22:42:20) zzorn_FI: we could specify it a bit, and our reasoning for it - like the right to private communication is a human right, and it needs to be defended against the police state trend, etc.'
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(22:42:40) K`Tetch_US: 'human rights' is such a broad term, that it could mean anything from pro-choice abortions, to free speech, to practicing genital mutilaton
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(22:43:07) K`Tetch_US: and it's been so overused, that it has lost meaning
 +
(22:43:15) Dragu_FI: the only real distinction between our stances on civil rights and human rights is that human rights also concern themselves with things like "right to live" and "right to marriage" etc
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(22:43:22) K`Tetch_US: perhaps a dialogue with amnesty international, for starters?
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(22:43:36) zzorn_FI: IIRC one of the human rights texts also include the right for some kind of control of your non-physical work (basically IP like, although it leaves room for interpretation)
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(22:43:39) Dragu_FI: that being the case, I don't think we need to emphasize that human rights part nearly as much as the civil rights one
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(22:43:41) Aiarakoa_ES: I guess they'll submit to UDHR
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(22:44:04) ***zzorn_FI nods at Dragu_FI
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(22:44:49) Aiarakoa_ES: if we  emphasize specific ones
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(22:45:02) Aiarakoa_ES: then we would arrive to point two:
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(22:45:16) Aiarakoa_ES: (apart from removing point one)
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(22:45:24) Aiarakoa_ES: - freedom of speech, pressumption of innocence, customers rights
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(22:45:35) Aiarakoa_ES: i.e. -as Andrew said-: civil rights ... which ones?
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(22:46:04) Dragu_FI: those relevant to an information society, a democracy and a society of rights/law (rechtsstaat)
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(22:46:43) osh_DK: rights to free speech,  privacy, access to information and culture in particular
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(22:47:05) Aiarakoa_ES: pressumption of innocence
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(22:47:27) Dragu_FI: free speech, privacy, access to information are included in SoR and IS
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(22:47:43) Aiarakoa_ES: SoR?
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(22:47:46) osh_DK: "SoR and IS"?
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(22:48:09) Dragu_FI: presumption of innocence is central in SoR (State of Rights/State of Law/Rechtsstaat (see wikipedia))
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(22:48:14) Aiarakoa_ES: ok
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(22:48:15) Dragu_FI: IS = Information Society
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(22:48:32) osh_DK: ok
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(22:48:43) Aiarakoa_ES: being equal before the law
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(22:48:49) Dragu_FI: included in rechsstaat
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(22:49:06) Dragu_FI: (I'll use that term from now on)
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(22:49:25) Aiarakoa_ES: (also including being equal before the law, regardless on whether we talk about Internet or the RealWorldTM xD)
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(22:49:44) Dragu_FI: in danish I think its "retsstat", espanish "Estado de Derecho"
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(22:49:57) Dragu_FI: spanish*
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(22:50:16) osh_DK: it is "retsstat" in danish
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(22:50:48) Aiue is now known as Aiue\pepzi
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(22:52:47) Roderick_AU: Rule of Law in Australia/UK
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(22:53:15) Aiarakoa_ES: Rule of Law in some countries includes the "rechtstaat" concept
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(22:53:23) Aiarakoa_ES: in Spain Rule of the Law means "imperio de la ley"
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(22:53:40) Aiarakoa_ES: and goes together and binded to the "Estado de Derecho" concept
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(22:53:55) PDA_AT [pda@pp-9842CA58.adsl.highway.telekom.at] entered the room.
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(22:54:13) Aiarakoa_ES: furthermore, for the rechtstaat to work, law must rule
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(22:54:19) osh_DK: also the right to protection against arbitrary arrest, detention or exile, and the right to go to court
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(22:54:47) Aiarakoa_ES: PIRATA's draft for Civil RIghts and Liberties enumerates the following
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(22:54:48) Aiarakoa_ES: #  Libertad de Expresión ( 2.a.9 Est.; 18,19,20 DH; 16,20,21,22 CE )
 +
(22:54:48) Aiarakoa_ES: # Privacidad ( 2.a.9 Est.; 12 DH; 18 CE )
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(22:54:48) Aiarakoa_ES: # Presunción de inocencia/tutela judicial ( 2.a.9 Est.; 8,9,10,11 DH; 17,24,25.1 CE )
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(22:54:48) Aiarakoa_ES: # Igualdad ante la Ley/ausencia de discriminación ( 2.a.10 Est; 2,7 DH; 14 CE )
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(22:54:48) Aiarakoa_ES: # Derecho a la vida y a la integridad física y moral ( 2.a.10 Est; 3,4,5,6 DH; 15 CE )
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(22:54:52) Aiarakoa_ES: (translated )
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(22:55:00) Dragu_FI: rechtsstaat as a term etymologically includes both "justice" and "rights" afaik
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(22:55:19) Dragu_FI: (mostly because its ambiguous)
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(22:55:36) Aiarakoa_ES: Freedom of speech - Privacy - Pressumption of innocence/right to go to court - equality before the law/no discrimination - right to life and moral and physical integrity
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(22:56:26) K`Tetch_US: "right to life" as in what?
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(22:56:51) Aiarakoa_ES: according to Spanish Constitution, "Everyone has the right to life and to physical and moral integrity, and under no circumstances may be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading punishment or treatment"
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(22:57:18) PDA_AT: sounds.. good..
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(22:57:50) Aiarakoa_ES: Spanish Constitution also states, "Everyone has the right to life and to physical and moral integrity, and under no circumstances may be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading punishment or treatment"
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(22:57:52) K`Tetch_US: ok, here, 'right to life' is used to mean 'anti-abortion'
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(22:57:53) Aiarakoa_ES: ...
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(22:57:56) Aiarakoa_ES: damn copy & paste
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(22:58:01) Aiarakoa_ES: "Death penalty is hereby abolished, except as provided for by military criminal law in times of war"
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(22:59:15) Dragu_FI: "right to life" generally means the right not to be killed (at least not for arbitrary or unlawful reason)
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(22:59:43) K`Tetch_US: yeah, its just slogan phrases like that can have different meanings in different places
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(22:59:48) Dragu_FI: (which essentially is a "right" so basic to modern society we think its obvious)
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(22:59:57) K`Tetch_US: thats one problem, and something i wanted to make sure was defined
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(22:59:59) osh_DK: In the US, terms like "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are almost orwellian doublespeak
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(23:00:07) K`Tetch_US: yeah, i know
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(23:00:23) K`Tetch_US: it's YET ANOTHER language i have to learn
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(23:00:30) PDA_AT: mh
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(23:00:32) osh_DK: I like to have choise, but that doesn't mean im against life :)
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(23:00:57) K`Tetch_US: yep
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(23:01:31) Aiarakoa_ES: indeed, the spanish constitution provision regarding life limits the abortion
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(23:01:39) Aiarakoa_ES: abortion is partially allowed in Spain
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(23:01:43) Aiarakoa_ES: only in certain cases
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(23:02:32) Aiarakoa_ES: laws allowing all-purpose time-windowed abortion were banned by Constitutional Court
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(23:02:57) K`Tetch_US: some of the states here go overboard like south dakota - http://www.gainesville.com/article/20080723/NEWS/392168164&title=S__Dakota_doctors_required_to_recite_statement_before_performing_abortions
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(23:02:59) Dragu_FI: In finland its essentially allowed for pretty much any purpose up until the 12th week of pregnancy
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(23:03:09) Dragu_FI: but it still includes lots of paperwork
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(23:03:39) Dragu_FI: because you need to have a doctors order to actually have abortion, and you have to state a cause that is somehow relevant to the wellbeing of either child or mother
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(23:03:39) K`Tetch_US: "The 2005 law requires doctors to tell women "that the abortion will terminate the life of a whole, separate, unique, living human being." Women also would have to be told they have a right to continue a pregnancy and that abortion may cause them psychological harm, including thoughts of suicide."
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(23:03:52) K`Tetch_US: A law that took effect July 1 requires doctors to ask women if they want to see sonograms of their fetuses, but women will not be forced to look at them.
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(23:04:13) osh_DK: if we do not mention abortion, i dont think we would get problems mentioning that we think everybody has a right to live
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(23:04:56) K`Tetch_US: right, i was just pointing out (without intending to derail things) that 'right to life', and other phrases, can have other connotations in some places
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(23:05:31) osh_DK: yes, and it is good to mention - we have to be careful about that
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(23:05:35) Aiarakoa_ES: PIRATA formula for right to life is the following: "PIRATA will also condemn any attempt against anyone's life and integrity, and will condemn any attempt of excluding and prosecuting people because of their ideologies, faith or beliefs, nationality, race, gender or sexual preferences"
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(23:06:03) Aiarakoa_ES: (taken from Spanish Political Parties Law)
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(23:06:20) Aiarakoa_ES: (we're actually willing to approach, for the discrimination part, the constitutional text
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(23:06:36) Aiarakoa_ES: "Spaniards [...] may not in any way be discriminated against on account of birth, race, sex, religion, opinion or any other personal or social condition or circumstance")
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(23:08:48) osh_DK: makes sense to me
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(23:09:10) osh_DK: are we ready to conclude on the human rights issues for now?
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(23:09:18) Aiarakoa_ES: it depends
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(23:09:33) Aiarakoa_ES: have we agreed on the ones that we are willing to include?
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(23:10:01) K`Tetch_US: I'd say yes, but the test comes when we look back on it, in a few days time
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(23:10:45) Aiarakoa_ES: Freedom of speech - Privacy - Pressumption of innocence/right to go to court - equality before the law/no discrimination - right to life and moral and physical integrity?
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(23:10:51) Aiarakoa_ES: as basis for rechtstaat?
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(23:10:57) osh_DK: rights to live, equality, privacy, free speech, presumption of innocense
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(23:11:04) osh_DK: did i forget any?
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(23:11:13) Aiarakoa_ES: think it's ok
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(23:11:38) Aiarakoa_ES: the last point for civil rights and liberties
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(23:11:43) Aiarakoa_ES: regarding democracy
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(23:11:44) Aiarakoa_ES: - condemning the use of violence to promote political claims, as well as racism, sexism, etc
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(23:11:56) Aiarakoa_ES: racism, sexism, are included in the former list
 +
(23:11:58) Aiarakoa_ES: so
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(23:12:12) Aiarakoa_ES: it's about condemning the use of violence to promote political claims
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(23:12:14) Aiarakoa_ES: like
 +
(23:12:33) Aiarakoa_ES: give me what I wount or I'll burn your house/break your legs/kill your family/etc
 +
(23:12:46) Aiarakoa_ES: instead
 +
(23:13:05) Aiarakoa_ES: parliaments, citizens' initiatives
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(23:13:17) Aiarakoa_ES: would be the mechanisms for people, for us, to make our claims
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(23:14:05) Aiarakoa_ES: what do you think about it?
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(23:14:23) osh_DK: using violence to promote political claims should be condemned in a democracy - but how about a non-democracy?
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(23:14:49) Aiarakoa_ES: according to UDHR
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(23:15:04) Aiarakoa_ES: "Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,"
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(23:15:26) K`Tetch_US: "no political claim or position has any validity if it is not expressed through reasoned rational thought and argument"
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(23:15:28) Aiarakoa_ES: so we are assuming to work with the rule of law"
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(23:16:17) bAdBoYz_AT: ok folks, im going to sleep... see u next time here
 +
(23:16:18) bAdBoYz_AT: gn8
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(23:16:25) Aiarakoa_ES: by, bAdBoYz
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(23:16:26) osh_DK: see you
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(23:17:20) osh_DK: under the presumption we live under a rule of law based on the will of the people, I have no problem condemning political violence
 +
(23:17:49) Aiarakoa_ES: as far as I see it
 +
(23:18:06) Aiarakoa_ES: condemning political violence is like condemning attacks to life
 +
(23:18:13) Aiarakoa_ES: think of self-defense
 +
(23:18:31) Aiarakoa_ES: when rule of law prevails
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(23:18:44) Aiarakoa_ES: there is no rational argument -as Andrew said- for violence
 +
(23:18:47) Dragu_FI: I don't think we have to separately condemn political violence as we probably condemn general civil violence anyway
 +
(23:19:16) Aiarakoa_ES: such types of violence are pretty different
 +
(23:19:18) K`Tetch_US: what i said not only condems the violence, without specifying violence, it also puts the emphasis on 'rational'
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(23:19:32) K`Tetch_US: that also deals with emotive arguments, without any facts
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(23:19:34) Aiarakoa_ES: I may argue in a pub with a dude
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(23:19:42) Aiarakoa_ES: about a football team
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(23:19:53) Aiarakoa_ES: or about economics, or religion, or a girl, or about whatever
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(23:20:02) osh_DK: Andrew has a good point, i think
 +
(23:20:02) Aiarakoa_ES: and fight, and injury each other
 +
(23:20:22) Aiarakoa_ES: but it's not about that, Dragu: it's about trying to impose claims to other through violence
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(23:20:35) K`Tetch_US: instead of saying 'this is bad' and looking 'preachy' we say whats good, specifically
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(23:21:01) Dragu_FI: Aiarakoa_ES: usually, when organized, labeled "terrorism"
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(23:21:03) Aiarakoa_ES: don't get the "preachy" point :)
 +
(23:21:18) Dragu_FI: Aiarakoa_ES: but why do we have to have a separate stance on that in the manifesto?
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(23:21:31) K`Tetch_US: preachy, as in like a priest, shouting out 'don't do this, don't do that'
 +
(23:21:42) Aiarakoa_ES: I know I know what a preacher is
 +
(23:22:08) Aiarakoa_ES: what I didn't got is telling that violence to make claims being not acceptable becomes preachy
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(23:22:20) Aiarakoa_ES: I think both things
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(23:22:24) K`Tetch_US: its the whole 'don't do that' aspect
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(23:22:31) Aiarakoa_ES: telling that rational argument is the acceptable one
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(23:22:40) K`Tetch_US: instead of saying 'don't do that' and being negative, say 'this is the way to go' and be positive there
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(23:22:43) Aiarakoa_ES: and that imposing through violence is the unacceptable
 +
(23:22:54) osh_DK: I like wghat Andres said; perhaps we should say something like: "No political claim or position has any validity if it is not expressed through reasoned rational thought and argument. Violence is no means to obtain political objectives in a democracy."
 +
(23:23:13) Aiarakoa_ES: somewhat like Ole's would serve, I think
 +
(23:23:21) Aiarakoa_ES: as long as I consider both statements compatible :)
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(23:23:42) Dragu_FI: osh_DK: something like that perhaps
 +
(23:23:55) Dragu_FI: and a good emphasis on "in a democracy" ;)
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(23:24:12) Aiarakoa_ES: it's a good emphasis
 +
(23:24:15) Aiarakoa_ES: though watch out
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(23:24:22) Aiarakoa_ES: as the answer follows
 +
(23:24:37) Aiarakoa_ES: "but ... I don't live in a democracy!" (trying to justify certain acts)
 +
(23:24:43) Roderick_AU: "...firmly holds belief in democracy, and rejects any use of force, intimidation or physical violence as the means to achieving political goals. We vehemently reject any and all forms of political or public corruption."
 +
(23:24:47) K`Tetch_US: how about 'in any civilised society' then instead of 'in a democracy'
 +
(23:24:50) Aiarakoa_ES: as I say, I like Ole's approach
 +
(23:24:51) Roderick_AU: from our developing constitution
 +
(23:25:02) Aiarakoa_ES: don't find necessary to change Ole's approach
 +
(23:25:03) Aiarakoa_ES: I just warn
 +
(23:25:10) Aiarakoa_ES: that the answer will follows
 +
(23:25:17) Aiarakoa_ES: (to get us ready :))
 +
(23:25:30) K`Tetch_US: right, so instead of democracy, say 'civilised society'
 +
(23:25:44) Aiarakoa_ES: fine :)
 +
(23:25:56) osh_DK: Im thinking about how to overthrow a dictator to obtain democracy - that should be possible, even if violence is needed for it
 +
(23:25:58) K`Tetch_US: while some will say they're not in a democracy 9I will say that about the US) I wound't say its a civilised society
 +
(23:26:15) Aiarakoa_ES: US was founded through the use of violence
 +
(23:26:26) Aiarakoa_ES: Spain avoided French rule through violence
 +
(23:26:57) K`Tetch_US: a dictatorship may not be a civilised society
 +
(23:26:57) Lamps [Administra@pp-F4A5174C.dsl.telesp.net.br] entered the room.
 +
(23:27:00) Aiarakoa_ES: I know, Ole, that history reminds us
 +
(23:27:07) Aiarakoa_ES: however, as Andrew points out
 +
(23:27:16) K`Tetch_US: ok, people, Lamps here is from the starting brazilian party
 +
(23:27:29) Aiarakoa_ES: a dictatorship wouldn't be a civilised society
 +
(23:27:33) osh_DK: welcome Lamps
 +
(23:27:39) Aiarakoa_ES: (e.g., because treat citizens like children
 +
(23:27:42) Aiarakoa_ES: hi Lamps
 +
(23:27:47) Lamps: thanks ;D
 +
(23:27:48) osh_DK: nice to hear you are starting up in Brazil
 +
(23:27:52) Roderick_AU: hey lamps
 +
(23:27:54) Lamps: hi everyone..
 +
(23:28:04) Aiarakoa_ES: taking away responsibility from them, denying them right to decide, alienating them
 +
(23:28:04) ricsdeol [ricsdeol@B6CF0AA0.677F4718.69BF3602.IP] entered the room.
 +
(23:28:20) Aiarakoa_ES: yes, Andrew, it would be a good point :))
 +
(23:28:21) Dragu_FI: obviously depends on the definition of "civilized" ;)
 +
(23:28:26) ricsdeol left the room (Saindo).
 +
(23:28:38) Dragu_FI: Though I don't think thats an issue
 +
(23:28:41) Aiarakoa_ES: Romans, e.g., only allowed a 6-month dictatorship term
 +
(23:28:53) Aiarakoa_ES: until Julius Caesar arrived
 +
(23:28:57) Aiarakoa_ES: then the Republic ended
 +
(23:29:01) Lamps is now known as Lamps_BR
 +
(23:29:06) Aiarakoa_ES: and the Julii corrupted Rome
 +
(23:29:18) Aiarakoa_ES: Augustus, Tiberius, Nero, etc
 +
(23:29:18) ricsdeol [ricsdeol@B6CF0AA0.677F4718.69BF3602.IP] entered the room.
 +
(23:29:36) Aiarakoa_ES: dictatorship arrives, civilisation ends
 +
(23:29:53) Aiarakoa_ES: (it took a few centuries, but finally roman civilisation was eroded)
 +
(23:30:03) Dragu_FI: are we sidetracking?
 +
(23:30:10) Aiarakoa_ES: slightly xD
 +
(23:30:10) Roderick_AU: i think so
 +
(23:30:22) Aiarakoa_ES: coming back to the thing
 +
(23:30:36) Aiarakoa_ES: with this we would have finished the common points for Civil Rights and Liberties
 +
(23:30:50) ricsdeol left the room (Saindo).
 +
(23:31:02) Dragu_FI: whats left? non-core and information society?
 +
(23:31:10) Aiarakoa_ES: Patents, Trademarks
 +
(23:31:20) Aiarakoa_ES: Authors Rights
 +
(23:31:24) Aiarakoa_ES: (common points with nuances)
 +
(23:31:38) Aiarakoa_ES: Information society and Government accountability and transparency
 +
(23:31:54) Aiarakoa_ES: (trying to find out what to include from these categorie)
 +
(23:31:56) Aiarakoa_ES: and finally
 +
(23:31:57) ***Xuenay resists temptation to insert Vampire joke referring to the Julii bit, mostly because couldn't come up with one fast enough
 +
(23:32:00) Aiarakoa_ES: the controversial debates
 +
(23:32:30) Aiarakoa_ES: we would may finish the debates next week
 +
(23:32:38) Aiarakoa_ES: 31st of July
 +
(23:32:46) Aiarakoa_ES: or as late as 7th of August
 +
(23:33:05) Aiarakoa_ES: thus having almost all august to "make it look eye-candy"
 +
(23:33:11) K`Tetch_US: yeah, next week
 +
(23:33:29) Aiarakoa_ES: i.e., once having found the common points, polishing and embellishing the text will be easier :)
 +
(23:33:31) osh_DK: we should have a template draft in the wiki before next week
 +
(23:33:35) PDA_AT left the room.
 +
(23:33:36) Dragu_FI: yes
 +
(23:33:44) osh_DK: so our discussions can be a bit more concrete
 +
(23:33:54) Aiarakoa_ES: I'll put today's results tonight or tomorrow morning
 +
(23:34:05) K`Tetch_US: we also need to get those that are missing here, Helmut, Amelia, erm 'core'
 +
(23:34:09) brunobca_BR [brunobca@DA71CEF4.8B460A7.D30621A7.IP] entered the room.
 +
(23:34:55) Aiarakoa_ES: next meeting, 5th session
 +
(23:35:02) Aiarakoa_ES: 31st of July, 18:00 UTC (20:00 CEST)?
 +
(23:35:03) osh_DK: perhaps it would be a good idea to make the draft manifesto a separate wiki page
 +
(23:35:13) Aiarakoa_ES: it is
 +
(23:35:22) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto#First_Draft
 +
(23:35:34) Dragu_FI: btw, that wiki should seriously be better linked
 +
(23:35:42) osh_DK: 31st at 18:00 UTC suite me fine
 +
(23:35:45) Dragu_FI: I've had hewg problems finding anything relevant to the manifesto project there
 +
(23:35:45) ricsdeol [ricsdeol@B6CF0AA0.677F4718.69BF3602.IP] entered the room.
 +
(23:35:50) K`Tetch_US: thats 14:00 EDT, assuming its the same time as today started
 +
(23:36:01) Aiarakoa_ES: but Dragu
 +
(23:36:10) Aiarakoa_ES: that link is in that wiki's main page
 +
(23:36:12) Roderick_AU: another 4am start for me! super!
 +
(23:36:34) Aiarakoa_ES: roderick
 +
(23:36:38) Aiarakoa_ES: I recommend you to go out
 +
(23:36:44) Aiarakoa_ES: flirt with some chicks
 +
(23:36:46) Aiarakoa_ES: have fun
 +
(23:36:56) Aiarakoa_ES: and come back home just to get ready to start the session :D
 +
(23:36:57) Roderick_AU: come back drunk, might make a better contribution :P
 +
(23:37:01) Aiarakoa_ES: sure!
 +
(23:37:01) Aiarakoa_ES: :D
 +
(23:37:07) Aiarakoa_ES: ;)
 +
(23:37:08) Dragu_FI: Aiarakoa_ES: yes, that one, but I had problems finding the "at a glance" etc pages
 +
(23:37:18) osh_DK: iwas thinking about a separate page, not a section in the same large page
 +
(23:37:30) Dragu_FI: I did, eventually. But they could be gathered better under Category:Pirate Manifesto
 +
(23:37:57) Aiarakoa_ES: yes
 +
(23:37:59) Aiarakoa_ES: that's my fault
 +
(23:38:10) Aiarakoa_ES: I'm going to bind it to that category
 +
(23:38:48) Dragu_FI: kthx
 +
(23:39:23) Aiarakoa_ES: do I link the Category in the wiki main page?
 +
(23:39:27) Aiarakoa_ES: even highlighting it?
 +
(23:39:58) Dragu_FI: That would be nice
 +
(23:40:21) Dragu_FI: (you can add a link with [[:Category:Pirate Manifesto]]
 +
(23:40:26) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Category:Pirate_Manifesto
 +
(23:40:57) Dragu_FI: thanks
 +
(23:44:04) Aiue\pepzi: Received CTCP 'KANO' (to #ppi) from Aiue\pepzi
 +
(23:44:09) Aiue\pepzi: (sorry, just checking)
 +
(23:44:10) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Main_Page#Points_of_interest
 +
(23:44:17) Aiue\pepzi: awwh, no kano users anywhere these days :(
 +
(23:44:32) Aiarakoa_ES: how does it look like now?
 +
(23:44:40) Lamps_BR: kano?
 +
(23:45:10) Aiue\pepzi: Lamps_BR: yeah, old script for an old client back from the old days, like ten years ago.
 +
(23:45:35) Lamps_BR: =o  rlly brand new. =D
 +
(23:46:12) Aiue\pepzi: Yeah. What's funny is the client, XiRCON, made is as far as beta 4. :p
 +
(23:46:16) Aiarakoa_ES: by the way, Lamps
 +
(23:46:18) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_parties_at_a_glance#Who
 +
(23:46:27) Aiarakoa_ES: you may add Partido Pirata do Brazil to the list
 +
(23:46:39) Aiarakoa_ES: if you want to participate in the Pirate Manifesto's development
 +
(23:46:52) K`Tetch_US: and pick one of you two to deal with us crazy SOBs
 +
(23:47:04) Aiarakoa_ES: SOBs?
 +
(23:47:23) Lamps_BR: brunobca_BR, u there?
 +
(23:47:38) K`Tetch_US: hijos de puta :-)
 +
(23:47:45) Lamps_BR: we'll do it... i think. =]
 +
(23:48:05) K`Tetch_US: (in an affectionate way, carlos:-)
 +
(23:48:10) Aiarakoa_ES: xD
 +
(23:48:19) Aiarakoa_ES: like Kissinger said
 +
(23:48:24) Aiarakoa_ES: "he's a SOB, but our SOB"
 +
(23:48:25) Aiarakoa_ES: xD
 +
(23:48:30) K`Tetch_US: si
 +
(23:53:21) eCo left the room (quit: Client exited).
 +
(25-07-2008 00:00:38) K`Tetch_US: i guess everyone fell asleep at once...
 +
(00:01:14) K`Tetch_US: ok, people here, anyone still reading
 +
(00:01:16) Aiarakoa_ES: and now?
 +
(00:01:23) K`Tetch_US: are your nicknames registered
 +
(00:01:25) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Main_Page
 +
(00:01:28) Aiarakoa_ES: not here
 +
(00:01:31) Aiarakoa_ES: Dragu?
 +
(00:01:55) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Main_Page#Pirate_Manifesto
 +
(00:01:58) Aiarakoa_ES: Andrew
 +
(00:02:02) Aiarakoa_ES: how does it look like now?
 +
(00:02:32) K`Tetch_US: one sec
 +
(00:02:48) Lamps_BR: my (mine?) is.
 +
(00:03:17) K`Tetch_US: looks ok
 +
(00:03:29) K`Tetch_US: yes, 'mine' lamps
 +
(00:03:34) Dragu_FI: well, works
 +
(00:03:52) K`Tetch_US: thats all that matters
 +
(00:03:57) K`Tetch_US: if it works, it works
 +
(00:04:01) Lamps_BR: =D
 +
(00:04:21) ***K`Tetch_US is going to op all on this list with the chanserv - http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto#Who
 +
(00:04:52) K`Tetch_US: but probably tommorow now ;-)
 +
(00:05:29) Aiue\pepzi is now known as Aiue
 +
(00:05:35) ***Aiue is away.. ?L ?L ?L! [p!on]
 +
(00:06:01) Aiarakoa_ES: well
 +
(00:06:07) Aiarakoa_ES: ladies and gentlemen
 +
(00:06:27) Aiarakoa_ES: here one who's not a lady xD nor a gentleman :O
 +
(00:06:32) Aiarakoa_ES: (just a man :D)
 +
(00:06:39) Aiarakoa_ES: is going to sleep
 +
(00:06:55) osh_DK: I'll upload the log from tonight to the wiki
 +
(00:07:02) Aiarakoa_ES: ok
 +
(00:07:05) Aiarakoa_ES: ole
 +
(00:07:10) Aiarakoa_ES: may I suggest you something?
 +
(00:07:15) osh_DK: sure
 +
(00:08:46) Aiarakoa_ES: after creating the log wiki page
 +
(00:08:49) Aiarakoa_ES: you may link it here
 +
(00:08:50) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto#Meetings
 +
(00:09:00) Aiarakoa_ES: (to the fourth session's line)
 +
(00:09:21) forest_AT left the room (quit: Quit: ).
 +
(00:09:52) osh_DK: we also have http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto#Weekly_meetings.27_logs, but I can link it in both places
 +
(00:11:31) Aiarakoa_ES: that's the suggestion: to merge "Weekly meetings" into "meetings" -as "meetings" is inside the "When/How" section
 +
(00:11:36) Aiarakoa_ES: :)
 +
</pre>
  
 
[[Category:Pirate Manifesto]]
 
[[Category:Pirate Manifesto]]

Latest revision as of 00:17, 25 July 2008

Before the break

(19:44:44) bAdBoYz: hey
(19:47:24) aiaraOUT: hi
(19:48:55) K`Tetch: sup
(19:50:34) DracoFlameus: hey all ^^
(19:57:27) aiaraOUT is now known as Aiarakoa_ES
(20:00:15) Aiarakoa_ES: let's gonna start?
(20:00:37) zzorn is now known as zzorn_FI
(20:01:27) Aiarakoa_ES: how many parties attending today?
(20:01:54) arek_pl [arek_pl@pp-976ECD8D.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] entered the room.
(20:02:10) arek_pl: hi guys
(20:02:12) Aiarakoa_ES: hi
(20:02:15) zzorn_FI: hi
(20:02:17) Aiarakoa_ES: ES, FI & PL up to now
(20:02:24) ***zzorn_FI is mostly just lurking
(20:02:27) Aiarakoa_ES: K`Tetch?
(20:02:36) bAdBoYz is now known as bAdBoYz_AT
(20:02:40) Aiarakoa_ES: also AT
(20:02:47) bAdBoYz_AT: yeah..
(20:02:48) bAdBoYz_AT: ^^
(20:03:15) mjr [mjr@pp-C54EAB18.sange.fi] entered the room.
(20:03:18) Aiarakoa_ES: with K`Tetch it would be ES, FI, PL, US & AT
(20:03:27) Roderick [Roderick@5AE94292.AB1804AB.2B25DC93.IP] entered the room.
(20:03:44) Aiarakoa_ES: with Roderick it would be ES, FI, PL, US, AT & AU
(20:03:46) Aiarakoa_ES: no german? no swedish?
(20:03:51) Aiarakoa_ES: no dutch?
(20:04:12) Roderick: good morning :)
(20:04:14) Apachez [apachez@pp-3E068A2C.home.staertesjoen.se] entered the room.
(20:04:28) Roderick: sorry about last meeting, work called unfortunately.
(20:04:39) Aiarakoa_ES: don't worry
(20:04:41) Aiarakoa_ES: any Piraten Partij representative?
(20:04:47) Aiarakoa_ES: any Deutsches Piraten Partei representative?
(20:04:50) Aiarakoa_ES: any Piratpartiet representative?
(20:05:08) Aiue [jns@pp-551B8037.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] entered the room.
(20:05:13) Apachez: JAWOHL!
(20:05:15) PDA [pda@pp-1AA38D16.adsl.highway.telekom.at] entered the room.
(20:05:30) Aiarakoa_ES: so you're German, apachez?
(20:05:54) Aiue: apachez@pp-3E068A2C.home.staertesjoen.se!sweden
(20:06:11) Aiue: No in Germany, in any case. ;)
(20:06:31) ***Aiarakoa_ES asks attending folks to add the country suffix (like zzorn or bAdBoYz)
(20:06:50) bAdBoYz_AT: i've done it already
(20:06:52) Xuenay [Xuenay@pp-5CC0EED8.org.helsinki.fi] entered the room.
(20:06:52) Aiue is now known as Aiue_SE
(20:07:00) Roderick is now known as Roderick_AU
(20:07:03) Apachez: yeah and im from eztonia
(20:07:18) Apachez: or ezpanol
(20:07:22) Apachez: depends on the mood
(20:07:23) Aiarakoa_ES: oh is there a pirate party in Estonia?
(20:07:35) Aiarakoa_ES: oh it was a joke about EZ
(20:07:36) Aiarakoa_ES: :P
(20:07:42) DracoFlameus: xD
(20:07:49) DracoFlameus: AT here as well
(20:07:50) zzorn_FI: Apachez is in the swedish PP afaik
(20:08:05) Aiarakoa_ES: let's get started
(20:08:11) Aiarakoa_ES: I suppose that, before coming here now
(20:08:14) Aiarakoa_ES: you read the briefings
(20:08:26) PDA is now known as PDA_AT
(20:08:36) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_parties_at_a_glance
(20:08:49) Aiarakoa_ES: DracoFlameus
(20:08:57) Aiarakoa_ES: Austrian briefing is still missing
(20:09:26) Aiarakoa_ES: with it there would be 10 out of 12 briefings available
(20:09:26) K`Tetch: I'm here sorta
(20:09:35) K`Tetch is now known as K`Tetch_US
(20:10:02) DracoFlameus: yeah, sry, we will take of that
(20:10:08) Aiarakoa_ES: well
(20:10:10) K`Tetch_US: and I also regged the channel the other day
(20:10:26) K`Tetch_US: only person i've set on it so far is combatt
(20:10:50) mode (+ooo Aiarakoa_ES bAdBoYz_AT DracoFlameus) by K`Tetch_US
(20:10:54) Aiarakoa_ES: I suggest to start structuring the manifesto
(20:11:01) mode (+ooo Dragu hyper_ch osh_AWAY) by K`Tetch_US
(20:11:05) mode (+o Roderick_AU) by K`Tetch_US
(20:11:08) Aiarakoa_ES: dividing it in subsections to make it easier to work on it
(20:11:41) Aiarakoa_ES: e.g., an initial one with a description about what do we are hear for, and the rest of subsections being
(20:11:51) K`Tetch_US: anyone here from the german party?
(20:11:57) K`Tetch_US: (and is anyone taking minutes)
(20:12:01) Edulix left the room (quit: Client exited).
(20:12:03) Aiarakoa_ES: one per ideological category, plus another one for non-core issues treatment
(20:12:28) Aiarakoa_ES: I'm afraid, K`Tetch, there are no german representatives here
(20:12:36) K`Tetch_US: ok, I'll hit helmut up now
(20:12:38) zzorn_FI: I guess we could write the initial section last, as a summary of the others.
(20:13:18) Aiarakoa_ES: fine, Andrew
(20:13:27) Aiarakoa_ES: I think it's a good choice, zzorn
(20:13:38) Aiarakoa_ES: what do you think about it, folks?
(20:13:54) Edulix [edulix@582521C8.20D4C624.7CE4EF25.IP] entered the room.
(20:14:15) zzorn_FI: sounds good to me
(20:14:22) K`Tetch_US: thats only to be expected
(20:14:50) Aiarakoa_ES: so let's gonna take profit from the briefings: let's gonna find out what do we have in common
(20:15:08) Aiarakoa_ES: and thus enlisting the sections
(20:15:30) Aiarakoa_ES: what do we have in common I think is a good starting point
(20:15:42) K`Tetch_US: reform of 'intellectual property'
(20:15:45) Aiarakoa_ES: after we have dealt with it, we will be able to deal with controversies
(20:15:56) Aiarakoa_ES: right, author's rights would be one category
(20:15:58) K`Tetch_US: lets start broad, and then try and narrow down
(20:16:03) Aiarakoa_ES: what others?
(20:16:10) Aiarakoa_ES: which others?
(20:16:23) Aiarakoa_ES: Patents
(20:16:24) K`Tetch_US: increased personal privacy/lack of government intrusion/survailance
(20:16:37) K`Tetch_US: as i said, intellectual property, which is patent, copyright trademark
(20:16:40) Aiarakoa_ES: right again, Andrew: Civil Rights and Liberties
(20:16:48) Aiarakoa_ES: mmm
(20:17:11) Aiarakoa_ES: I think author's rights should be treated separately from patents
(20:17:29) Aiarakoa_ES: as, from what I read from each pirate party, there may be controversies in both categories
(20:17:32) K`Tetch_US: well, as I said, start broad, we can split IP down into 3 sections
(20:17:41) bAdBoYz_AT: yeah, civil rights and liberties sounds generic..
(20:17:41) Aiarakoa_ES: fine for me
(20:17:53) bAdBoYz_AT: i think thats a good starting point..
(20:17:55) Aiarakoa_ES: and
(20:18:03) Aiarakoa_ES: there are two additional categories that, however
(20:18:06) Apachez: tipping point
(20:18:13) Aiarakoa_ES: weren't in all pirate parties:
(20:18:16) Aiarakoa_ES: - Information Society
(20:18:21) K`Tetch_US: ok, government transparancy and accountability?
(20:18:22) Apachez: the official meeting language should be swedish
(20:18:24) Aiarakoa_ES: - Government accountability
(20:18:44) K`Tetch_US: why Apachez?
(20:18:59) Apachez: because you should honor sweden, home of the pirates
(20:19:00) Roderick_AU: i suppose we should define what the PPI should be at some point, i.e. will it be a federation, or an association, how should parties be tied to it etc.
(20:19:00) Aiarakoa_ES: I suggest to initially include both as preliminary sections, and see where does it guide us
(20:19:03) Edulix left the room (quit: Client exited).
(20:19:15) Aiarakoa_ES: ja, apachez, ja
(20:19:16) Aiarakoa_ES: skol
(20:19:19) Aiarakoa_ES: :D
(20:19:31) Aiarakoa_ES: Henrik Larsson, etc
(20:19:46) Apachez: either you are with sweden or you are with the mpaa terrorists
(20:19:54) Roderick_AU: lol
(20:19:56) ***Aiarakoa_ES cannot speak Swedish; however, can speak English apart from Spanish
(20:20:00) Aiarakoa_ES: apachez xD
(20:20:07) K`Tetch_US: Apachez - while I'm gettin ok at starting to understand swedish, I can't speak it, same with spanish, italian, french and portugese (and german, to a very basic level)
(20:20:22) Edulix [edulix@582521C8.20D4C624.7CE4EF25.IP] entered the room.
(20:20:32) zzorn_FI: lets continue (in English)
(20:20:37) Aiarakoa_ES: coming back to the thing
(20:20:41) Aiue_SE: Common sense tells me it's better to stick with a language anyone can understand and at least make themselves understood using. ;)
(20:20:50) Aiue_SE: s/anyone/everyone
(20:20:51) Aiarakoa_ES: I suggest to preliminary include both sections
(20:21:03) Aiarakoa_ES: (Information Society, and Government Accountability)
(20:21:09) K`Tetch_US: both sections of what?
(20:21:14) K`Tetch_US: ah
(20:21:19) ***zzorn_FI nods
(20:21:21) K`Tetch_US: how about government transparancy
(20:21:29) Aiarakoa_ES: both section are not present in all pirate parties' briefings
(20:21:37) K`Tetch_US: or would you count that with accountability
(20:21:39) Aiarakoa_ES: government transparency and accountability, right, Andrew
(20:21:50) K`Tetch_US: ok
(20:21:51) Aiarakoa_ES: no problem with changing the tag :)
(20:21:55) Aiarakoa_ES: so
(20:22:02) Aiarakoa_ES: we have the initial section
(20:22:07) Aiarakoa_ES: five ideological sections
(20:22:13) Aiarakoa_ES: plus the non-core issues treatment
(20:22:14) Aiarakoa_ES: right?
(20:22:21) K`Tetch_US: yeah
(20:22:24) zzorn_FI: (are you editing it into the wiki on the fly?)
(20:22:32) Aiarakoa_ES: not yet
(20:22:35) Aiarakoa_ES: should I?
(20:22:44) Aiarakoa_ES: (I can if you want to :))
(20:22:48) zzorn_FI: nah, as long as you / someone keeps track of it
(20:23:05) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto#First_Draft
(20:23:20) Aiarakoa_ES: I can revisit the log after the meeting if you prefer it
(20:23:29) Aiarakoa_ES: let's proceed
(20:23:31) zzorn_FI: whichever is easiest for you
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(20:23:45) Aiarakoa_ES: after leaving initial section for last
(20:23:53) K`Tetch_US: and we need to post the log of the meeting later too
(20:24:06) mode (+o zzorn_FI) by K`Tetch_US
(20:24:07) Edulix [edulix@582521C8.20D4C624.7CE4EF25.IP] entered the room.
(20:24:07) Aiarakoa_ES: I suggest, for each of the three common sections, to find as well the common points
(20:24:24) Aiarakoa_ES: (we would come later with Information Society, and Government Accountability and Transparency)
(20:24:29) Aiarakoa_ES: step by step
(20:24:31) Aiarakoa_ES: do you agree?
(20:24:46) K`Tetch_US: ok
(20:24:51) ***zzorn_FI nods
(20:25:04) Aiarakoa_ES: first one: Civil Rights and Liberties
(20:25:09) Aiarakoa_ES: after studying the briefings
(20:25:12) Aiarakoa_ES: I have this analysis
(20:25:15) Aiarakoa_ES: common points:
(20:25:18) Aiarakoa_ES: - privacy
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(20:25:28) Aiarakoa_ES: common points (with nuances):
(20:25:40) Aiarakoa_ES: - taking human rights as a reference
(20:26:01) Aiarakoa_ES: - freedom of speech, pressumption of innocence, customers rights
(20:26:01) K`Tetch_US: oh, btw - in the who, can we give the position in the national party of each person
(20:26:14) Aiarakoa_ES: yes of course
(20:26:20) Aiarakoa_ES: it will serve to check my analysis :)
(20:26:25) DracoFlameus is now known as Draco_AT
(20:26:52) Aiarakoa_ES: - condemning the use of violence to promote political claims, as well as racism, sexism, etc
(20:26:58) Aiarakoa_ES: controversy
(20:27:12) Aiarakoa_ES: - fight against crime & terrorism compatible with human rights
(20:27:18) Aiarakoa_ES: - abolish antiterrorist laws
(20:27:26) Aiarakoa_ES: ...
(20:27:27) Aiarakoa_ES: that's it
(20:27:53) d4rkst0rm is now known as D4rKSt0rM_AT
(20:28:13) Edulix [edulix@582521C8.20D4C624.7CE4EF25.IP] entered the room.
(20:28:16) Aiarakoa_ES: if I was accurate in my analysis, I would suggest to inmediately pack the common point
(20:28:24) Aiarakoa_ES: debate the nuances on the other "common" points
(20:28:42) Aiarakoa_ES: and leave the controversy for the end, after having found the common points for all categories
(20:29:06) Aiarakoa_ES: (this way, we would have a working draft just in case we wouldn't have time to work with controversy before Stage One's deadline
(20:29:12) K`Tetch_US: right
(20:29:14) Aiarakoa_ES: having Stage Two to deal with controversy through amendments)
(20:29:54) Aiarakoa_ES: let's start debating nuances for this category? or first repeat the analysis for the other categories?
(20:30:18) K`Tetch_US: lets do the commonalities
(20:30:37) Aiarakoa_ES: commonalities?
(20:30:42) Aiarakoa_ES: you mean the first option?
(20:30:45) zzorn_FI: At least the Finnish pirate party program agrees with the common points in Civil rights and liberties.
(20:31:50) K`Tetch_US: commanlities - the common points
(20:31:53) Aiarakoa_ES: nuances were, e.g., Danish pirate party willing to get human rights as reference
(20:32:06) Aiarakoa_ES: but as defined in European Convention for Human Rights
(20:32:12) Aiarakoa_ES: while PIRATA uses UDHR as reference
(20:32:16) Aiarakoa_ES: (that kind of nuances)
(20:32:19) ***K`Tetch_US is sorry for the long $9 words 9forget y'all aint native english speakers)
(20:32:28) elmindreda [camilla@pp-3F77699F.cust.blixtvik.net] entered the room.
(20:33:17) Aiarakoa_ES: also, the nuances about freedom of speech or pressumption of innocence are that those concepts weren't present in all briefings
(20:33:26) Aiarakoa_ES: (though we may assume that we all defend such principles)
(20:33:55) bAdBoYz_AT: hmm... but what kind of nuances could be about freedom of speech etc?
(20:34:06) K`Tetch_US: there's a few
(20:34:32) K`Tetch_US: how far do you go to support it, and how do you deal with libel/slander
(20:34:34) Aiarakoa_ES: at least at the first layers of abstraction, Andrew
(20:34:38) Aiarakoa_ES: I think there arent
(20:34:53) Aiarakoa_ES: nuances will arise when talking about concrete measures, as you point now
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(20:35:08) Aiarakoa_ES: however, at a Manifesto level, I think all of us would agree on freedom of speech as a principle
(20:35:08) K`Tetch_US: then the old scenario of 'fire in a crowded theatre'
(20:35:08) Aiarakoa_ES: :)
(20:35:22) Edulix [edulix@582521C8.20D4C624.7CE4EF25.IP] entered the room.
(20:36:09) Aiarakoa_ES: the third issue with nuances is condemning violence used to promote claims, and condemning racism, sexism, etc
(20:36:19) Aiarakoa_ES: (again, because of not being present in all pirate parties' briefings)
(20:36:26) ***zzorn_FI nods
(20:36:27) Roderick_AU: well, in australia freedom of speech isn't protected expressly by any law or bill of rights (which australia does not have)
(20:36:36) Roderick_AU: which might provide for problems i suppose.
(20:36:40) K`Tetch_US: UK doesn't either
(20:37:01) Aiarakoa_ES: is not always about local laws, but local parties principles
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(20:37:09) K`Tetch_US: US does, but doesn't seem to adhere to them
(20:37:13) Aiarakoa_ES: it's about what does each party defends
(20:37:23) Aiarakoa_ES: (it uses to happen, Andrrew
(20:37:46) Aiarakoa_ES: we also have in Spain a beautiful Constitution that uses to not be enforced too often)
(20:38:16) Roderick_AU: well the uk has a bill of rights i believe.
(20:38:16) Aiarakoa_ES: there are other issues with nuances -I mean, have I forgot something-?
(20:38:21) Aiarakoa_ES: or may we start the debate?
(20:38:35) Edulix [edulix@582521C8.20D4C624.7CE4EF25.IP] entered the room.
(20:38:41) K`Tetch_US: nope Roderick_AU, it signed the european bill of human rights, but then legislates around a number of the points, like no-self incrimination
(20:39:26) ***K`Tetch_US is getting increasingly annoyed with andy+Pete over the lack of effort for the UK party
(20:39:51) Aiarakoa_ES: it's a pity that countries like UK or Italy
(20:39:55) Aiarakoa_ES: doesn't have a pirate party
(20:40:08) K`Tetch_US: italy does
(20:40:20) Aiarakoa_ES: legally constituted, actually active?
(20:40:20) K`Tetch_US: they just don't seem to want to play with the rest of us
(20:40:23) Aiarakoa_ES: oh
(20:40:40) K`Tetch_US: uk, has pete and andy, who are both on the list, but andy spends more time adding stories to the ppi site, than getting ANYTHING done for the uk
(20:41:15) K`Tetch_US: I got them the chance to speak at a deep packet inspection protest last wednesday, neither wanted to go to london and take part, or find anyone to take part with some ppuk banners
(20:42:03) Aiue_SE: Some activists, eh?
(20:42:12) K`Tetch_US: chance to mingle with members of the hosue of lords, and they weren't interested
(20:42:25) K`Tetch_US: the organiser owed me too, since i got the protest funded
(20:42:40) Schutti [Schutti@pp-1D3B77CE.vie.surfer.at] entered the room.
(20:43:26) Schutti is now known as Schutti_AT
(20:43:33) Aiarakoa_ES: myself I have the handicap of not living in Madrid nor Barcelona to participate in certain events
(20:43:59) Aiarakoa_ES: in PIRATA were trying to create regional groups, to be able to promote demonstrations and other activities
(20:44:20) Aiarakoa_ES: and returning to the thing, did I miss any issue, or may we start with the debate?
(20:44:22) K`Tetch_US: I'm 60 miles from atlanta, and I'm usually stuck with the kids, so i can't do anything really (trying to drum up support with a 4yo tagging along isn't easy)
(20:44:38) K`Tetch_US: qwhat was the common points for the transparancy/accountability
(20:45:21) Aiarakoa_ES: oh that was what I said before
(20:45:26) bAdBoYz_AT: i'd like to use more direct democraty...
(20:45:31) zzorn_FI: Aiarakoa_ES, we can proceed.  If we forgot something, it's bound to come up sooner or later
(20:45:34) Aiarakoa_ES: do we find the common points for the rest of categoryes before debating?
(20:45:37) AllanP [AllanP@pp-34E0D17C.student.uu.se] entered the room.
(20:45:46) AllanP left the room.
(20:45:55) K`Tetch_US: yes
(20:46:00) K`Tetch_US: as I said, lets do all the common points
(20:46:10) Aiarakoa_ES: ok
(20:46:10) zzorn_FI: yeah, common points first perhaps.  Then we can debate the rest of the time :)
(20:46:11) Aiarakoa_ES: then
(20:46:21) K`Tetch_US: get the easy quick stuff done, before we get bogged down in debate and tangental discussion
(20:46:35) Aiarakoa_ES: patents
(20:46:48) Aiarakoa_ES: & trademarks
(20:46:58) K`Tetch_US: again, two seperate things
(20:47:02) Aiarakoa_ES: patents
(20:47:06) Aiarakoa_ES: commons
(20:47:13) Aiarakoa_ES: - remove software patents
(20:47:17) Aiarakoa_ES: commons with nuances
(20:47:30) Aiarakoa_ES: - reduce duration of patents
(20:47:41) Aiarakoa_ES: - remove biopatents (patenting life beings)
(20:48:16) Aiarakoa_ES: - aiming to remove monopolies created from the patent system -through the patent system reform-
(20:48:26) Roderick_AU: the swedish party seems to want to eventually phase out patents completely doesn't it?
(20:48:28) Aiarakoa_ES: controversies
(20:48:39) Aiarakoa_ES: - abolish in the long term all patents
(20:49:00) Aiarakoa_ES: - reform patents instead of removing all patents -removing some types but not all types
(20:49:07) Aiarakoa_ES: - abolish pharmaceutical patents
(20:49:14) Aiarakoa_ES: trademarks
(20:49:25) Dragu: oh crap
(20:49:30) Dragu: is the meeting over yet
(20:49:31) Aiarakoa_ES: (no common points)
(20:49:38) Aiarakoa_ES: common points with nuances
(20:49:52) Aiarakoa_ES: - differentiated treatment for author's rights, patents and trademarks
(20:50:10) Aiarakoa_ES: - not allowing registering as trade mark works under copyright
(20:50:10) zzorn_FI: Dragu, nope, we are going through common points in our programs.  We covered Civil Rights and Liberties, now going through IP.
(20:50:14) Aiarakoa_ES: (no controversies)
(20:50:24) Aiarakoa_ES: ...
(20:50:25) Aiarakoa_ES: that's it
(20:50:39) Aiarakoa_ES: do you agree with the analysis for Patents and trademarks?
(20:50:49) K`Tetch_US: yes
(20:50:55) Aiarakoa_ES: fine
(20:50:58) Aiarakoa_ES: next
(20:51:05) Dragu is now known as Dragu_FI
(20:51:09) K`Tetch_US: well, lets put it this way, i'm behind the common points, and i have some problem witht he controvosies
(20:51:25) K`Tetch_US: which is the point
(20:51:33) Aiarakoa_ES: with which controversies?
(20:51:47) K`Tetch_US: thats the point, its a controvosy to deal with later
(20:52:15) Aiarakoa_ES: don't understand
(20:52:26) K`Tetch_US: the common points are something we should all agree on
(20:52:31) K`Tetch_US: thats what makes them common
(20:52:35) Aiarakoa_ES: right
(20:52:52) K`Tetch_US: the controvosies are things some don't aggree with, and i have issues with some of those controvosies, so yes, they're placed correctly
(20:53:03) Aiarakoa_ES: ok :)
(20:53:09) K`Tetch_US: sorry I'm being wordy, I'm working on my study at another computer at the same time
(20:53:10) Aiarakoa_ES: then you agre with the analysis?
(20:53:14) Aiarakoa_ES: don't worry :)
(20:53:21) Roderick_AU: yes
(20:53:27) Aiarakoa_ES: next: Author's rights
(20:53:36) forester [ichbinwitz@pp-76D37746.cust.tele2.at] entered the room.
(20:53:42) Aiarakoa_ES: common points
(20:53:45) zzorn_FI: Aiarakoa_ES, Yep, agree with the analysis on patents & trademarks, although the Finnish party program doesn't mention trademarks.
(20:53:46) Dragu_FI: are the reasons to the controversies listed on the wiki?
(20:53:57) Aiarakoa_ES: zzorn, hence the nuances
(20:54:02) Dragu_FI: trademarks are a good thing when used correctly
(20:54:07) zzorn_FI: kk
(20:54:08) Aiarakoa_ES: nuances means that not all pirate parties include those points with nuances
(20:54:12) Aiarakoa_ES: :)
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(20:54:31) forest_AT [ichbinwitz@pp-76D37746.cust.tele2.at] entered the room.
(20:54:39) Aiarakoa_ES: author's rights
(20:54:42) Aiarakoa_ES: common points
(20:55:01) Aiarakoa_ES: - reducing term for copyright (i.e., commercial author's rights)
(20:55:11) Aiarakoa_ES: -common points with nuances
(20:55:13) Aiarakoa_ES: common points with nuances
(20:55:18) Aiarakoa_ES: - no to DRM
(20:55:31) Aiarakoa_ES: - no to any kind of levies (like private copying levies)
(20:55:45) Aiarakoa_ES: - no to using expressions like "intellectual property"
(20:56:01) Aiarakoa_ES: - balance between author's rights and citizens' rights on culture
(20:56:12) Aiarakoa_ES: - free non-commercial culture sharing
(20:56:22) Aiarakoa_ES: - promoting P2P-like tools to promote culture
(20:56:35) Aiarakoa_ES: - promote culture, in a general sense
(20:56:43) Aiarakoa_ES: (no controversies found)
(20:56:47) Aiarakoa_ES: ...
(20:56:54) zzorn_FI: me nods
(20:56:59) zzorn_FI: + /
(20:57:04) Aiarakoa_ES: there are, however, a bunch of points with nuances
(20:57:22) Aiarakoa_ES: do you agree with the analysis?
(20:57:35) K`Tetch_US: yes
(20:57:37) Roderick_AU: the term of reduction might be a nuance i.e. 5 years, as opposed to 14.
(20:57:49) Aiarakoa_ES: yes, Roderick, you're right
(20:57:50) Aiarakoa_ES: though
(20:57:54) Aiarakoa_ES: the idea of reducing the term
(20:58:02) Dragu_FI: yes I agree
(20:58:02) Roderick_AU: is common, yes.
(20:58:02) Aiarakoa_ES: is shared by all of us
(20:58:12) K`Tetch_US: is common, just the end point is different
(20:58:12) Dragu_FI: thats good to hear then
(20:58:16) Aiarakoa_ES: is like Andrew and I talked about freedom of speech
(20:58:26) Aiarakoa_ES: concrete proposals will require intense debates
(20:58:34) Aiarakoa_ES: however, we agree on the general concept :)
(20:58:47) Roderick_AU: we wouldn't be in pirate parties otherwise ;)
(20:58:52) Aiarakoa_ES: that's it :)
(20:59:07) Aiarakoa_ES: next?
(20:59:19) zzorn_FI: go ahead
(20:59:38) Aiarakoa_ES: now we go with the two categories not enlisted by all pirate parties:
(20:59:49) Aiarakoa_ES: Information Society and Government Transparency and Accountability
(21:00:01) Aiarakoa_ES: as they're not enlisted by all pirate parties
(21:00:16) Aiarakoa_ES: I'll rather explain what does each party briefs about them
(21:00:17) Aiarakoa_ES: ok?
(21:00:20) Dragu_FI: ok
(21:00:35) Aiarakoa_ES: Information Society
(21:00:48) Aiarakoa_ES: - Piraten Partei Deutschland
(21:00:55) Aiarakoa_ES: * avoiding monopolies on communications
(21:01:39) Aiarakoa_ES: * increasing infrastructures to make access to information technology
(21:01:42) Aiarakoa_ES: - PIRATA
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(21:02:02) Roderick_ [Roderick@5AE94292.AB1804AB.2B25DC93.IP] entered the room.
(21:02:13) Aiarakoa_ES: * universalize the Information Society
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(21:02:20) Roderick_ [Roderick@5AE94292.AB1804AB.2B25DC93.IP] entered the room.
(21:02:22) Edulix [edulix@582521C8.20D4C624.7CE4EF25.IP] entered the room.
(21:02:25) Aiarakoa_ES: * net neutrality
(21:02:33) Aiarakoa_ES: * FLOSS in the Public Office
(21:02:44) K`Tetch_US: now theres political speak if ever there was one "* universalize the Information Society"
(21:02:45) Aiarakoa_ES: (no more pirate parties deal with IS issue)
(21:02:46) Dragu_FI: (can you specify what you mean by "to universalize the information society" ? )
(21:02:54) Aiarakoa_ES: one sec
(21:02:59) Aiarakoa_ES: it's not about making it free
(21:03:04) Aiarakoa_ES: but
(21:03:10) Aiarakoa_ES: (and I quote PIRATA Statute)
(21:03:16) Dragu_FI: Aiarakoa_ES: actually FIN does but has probably been bad at stating this
(21:03:21) Dragu_FI: (like many others)
(21:03:48) Aiarakoa_ES: "We will work to make Internet as universal as nowadays radio or television are, and also to make every home, every business, every educational centre in Spain able to enjoy this information and culture universalization tool, without any kind of discrimination due to social, personal or geographic condition"
(21:04:26) Aiarakoa_ES: (it's about avoiding the digital divide, mainly)
(21:04:27) K`Tetch_US: ah, access available to all, basically
(21:04:35) Roderick_: basically just dissemination of the internet.
(21:04:36) Dragu_FI: Could that not be simplified to just "universal access to the internet and information" ?
(21:04:37) K`Tetch_US: but not subsidised access required
(21:04:41) Aiarakoa_ES: available, but not necesarily free
(21:04:42) Aiarakoa_ES: that's it
(21:04:52) K`Tetch_US: universal ability to acecss the net
(21:05:01) Dragu_FI: my gut feeling tells me all PP's can agree on that
(21:05:02) zzorn_FI: or availability of it
(21:05:05) Aiarakoa_ES: "* universalize the Information Society" was a brief approach
(21:05:14) Roderick_AU left the room (quit: Ping timeout).
(21:05:15) Aiarakoa_ES: though Dragu's approach would also serve :)
(21:05:19) K`Tetch_US: its very political and doesn't get the meaning across
(21:05:23) Roderick_ is now known as Roderick_AU
(21:05:35) K`Tetch_US: yeah, having more than one ISP to pick from would be nice :-)
(21:05:44) Aiarakoa_ES: one sec
(21:05:56) Aiarakoa_ES: and I'll proceed with Government Accountability and Transparency
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(21:07:46) Aiarakoa_ES: back again :)
(21:08:15) arek__pl [arek_pl@pp-C1BF78AB.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] entered the room.
(21:08:20) Aiarakoa_ES: Government Accountability and Transparency
(21:08:26) Aiarakoa_ES: - Piratpartiet
(21:08:49) Aiarakoa_ES: * regulating lobbyism
(21:09:05) Aiarakoa_ES: * defending openness (don't know exactly what does it mean)
(21:09:15) Aiarakoa_ES: * Transparency of Public Office
(21:09:32) Edulix [edulix@582521C8.20D4C624.7CE4EF25.IP] entered the room.
(21:09:40) Aiarakoa_ES: * Any public document not containing private data should be made public
(21:09:47) Aiarakoa_ES: - PPUS
(21:09:58) arek_pl left the room (quit: Ping timeout).
(21:10:15) K`Tetch_US: spot the ray line (second one)
(21:10:35) Aiarakoa_ES: * Governments required to answer to the people
(21:10:53) Aiarakoa_ES: * "Shame is good when one has done the wrong thing; and is a good motivator, when properly done, to prevent corruption" (?)
(21:11:00) K`Tetch_US: yep, that one
(21:11:25) Aiarakoa_ES: * Accountability should include the risk of loss of office, even if no criminal charges are filed.
(21:11:44) K`Tetch_US: basically means 'we shouldn't be afraid to publiscally shame people that break the public trust'
(21:11:46) Aiarakoa_ES: * Government officials should not be immune to the law (thus Andy is a Berlusconi or Juan Carlos I fan xD)
(21:12:11) K`Tetch_US: Ray wrote all these, not me :-)
(21:12:17) Aiarakoa_ES: was I joke
(21:12:23) K`Tetch_US: that was his job, as operatiosn officer
(21:12:26) Aiarakoa_ES: I mean that the King of Spain has no legal responsibilities
(21:12:39) Aiarakoa_ES: e.g., Juan Carlos I would may walk through Gran Via of Madrid
(21:12:41) Aiarakoa_ES: carry a gun
(21:12:52) Aiarakoa_ES: shot anyone with hundreds of witnesses
(21:13:04) K`Tetch_US: it's more in reference to the likes of bush/cheney or karl rove
(21:13:08) Aiarakoa_ES: and anyway he wouldn't be arrested nor brought to justice
(21:13:18) K`Tetch_US: queen's the same in the uk
(21:13:41) Aiarakoa_ES: thanks god (or the FSM xD) that they're not psycho ... :)
(21:13:53) Dragu_FI: I can sum up the finnish stances unless you already have some 
(21:13:55) Aiarakoa_ES: - Piraten Partei Deutschland
(21:14:18) K`Tetch_US: elizabeth married phillip - if thats not psycho, thats at least clinical depression, and charles+camilla
(21:14:19) Aiarakoa_ES: * Authorities reporting when required to; exceptions: national security and privacy
(21:14:44) Aiarakoa_ES: * Create a principle of publicity
(21:14:50) Aiarakoa_ES: * Make politic decisions transparant
(21:14:54) Aiarakoa_ES: - Piraatti Puolue
(21:14:56) K`Tetch_US: (no wonder prince andrew's in the Uk version of the Navy seals)
(21:15:24) Aiarakoa_ES: * Improve democratic decision-making at the EU
(21:15:32) Aiarakoa_ES: * Improve openness (?) at the EU
(21:15:41) Aiarakoa_ES: ...
(21:15:45) Dragu_FI: * Transparent funding in politics
(21:15:53) Dragu_FI: * General transparency in political process
(21:15:55) Aiarakoa_ES: that's all regarding those two categories
(21:16:04) Aiarakoa_ES: (that's not in your briefing :) )
(21:16:12) Dragu_FI: * Advisory diversity in legislative preparation
(21:16:18) Aiarakoa_ES: weren't able to figure it out
(21:16:22) Aiarakoa_ES: wan't able to figure it out
(21:16:23) Aiarakoa_ES: wasn't able to figure it out
(21:16:31) Dragu_FI: ~unofficial/not stated : to ensure that statesmen do not hold unproportional numbers of offices simultaneously
(21:16:50) Dragu_FI: yes, we've been quite lazy at recording stuff there recently due to extreme workload with campaigning (especially me)
(21:17:46) Aiarakoa_ES: I suggest to debate first the common points (with nuances) from common categories
(21:18:02) Aiarakoa_ES: later to debate those two categories not enlisted by all pirate parties
(21:18:12) Aiarakoa_ES: and finally the controversial issues from common categories
(21:18:30) Aiarakoa_ES: oh
(21:18:44) Aiarakoa_ES: there is one remaining category: non-core issues treatment
(21:18:47) Aiarakoa_ES: though ...
(21:18:55) Aiarakoa_ES: ... it lays within controversial issues xD
(21:20:03) K`Tetch_US: it's ALL contraversial there
(21:20:20) Dragu_FI: can you give us a brief?
(21:20:46) K`Tetch_US: I think there's as many different methods/opinions there as parties that have submitted
(21:21:38) Aiarakoa_ES: it's hard to make a brief
(21:21:50) Aiarakoa_ES: as only 3-4 parties have explained how do they (we) deal with it
(21:22:09) K`Tetch_US: some, like us, have no formal method, it depends on the specific case
(21:22:26) Aiarakoa_ES: there is the Swedish approach
(21:22:40) K`Tetch_US: the 'no i don't wanna touch that' aproach
(21:22:59) Aiarakoa_ES: The Swedish Piratpartiet does not take a stance in non-core issues. Candidates or representatives of the party may not express opinions of non-core issues in the name of the party.
(21:22:59) Aiarakoa_ES: Piratpartiet instead aims to form alliances with other political parties. Our bartering is that we give our allies our votes, if they pull through such reforms as are among our core-issues. That or those parties which agree to give us the most support with our issues, will get our votes in parliament. 
(21:23:12) Aiarakoa_ES: the Danish approach
(21:23:53) Aiarakoa_ES: as long as I understood from Ole's mails, not quite different from Swedish one
(21:24:06) Aiarakoa_ES: (using non-core issues as a exchange item in parliamentary dealings)
(21:24:07) K`Tetch_US: The Us approach is basically 'it's down to the candidate, based on the wishes of their constituants'
(21:24:25) Aiarakoa_ES: PIRATA then would be simmilar to US approach
(21:24:26) Aiarakoa_ES: ILCs
(21:25:06) K`Tetch_US: thats also the way of the uk, in general
(21:25:12) Aiarakoa_ES: ILCs means individuals & civic groups making proposals supported by signatures
(21:25:16) Aiarakoa_ES: with three requirements:
(21:25:22) Aiarakoa_ES: - enough signatures
(21:25:36) Aiarakoa_ES: - enough consenssus (not 100.000 signatures for and 90.000 against)
(21:26:05) Aiarakoa_ES: - compliant with PIRATA ideology, laws (even if proposals aim to change those laws) and human rights
(21:27:00) Aiarakoa_ES: and about parliamentary negotiations
(21:27:07) K`Tetch_US: as long as it doesn't go agaisnt our core issues, I have no problem with two PPUS congressmen taking opposite sides of an issue, if that's the will of the people they represent, since, we're supposed to be their voice in government
(21:27:08) Aiarakoa_ES: no alliances, but case by case dealing
(21:27:20) K`Tetch_US: BUT, we won't be poll-chasing
(21:28:09) Aiarakoa_ES: to reach consenssus on non-core issues treatment
(21:28:19) Aiarakoa_ES: I would be willing to make two different proposals
(21:28:30) Aiarakoa_ES: one would be PIRATA approach in an international scope
(21:28:46) Aiarakoa_ES: the other one, for non-core issues to allow representatives for each pirate party
(21:28:51) Aiarakoa_ES: in the international organisms
(21:29:10) Roderick_AU: perhaps its something the PPI shouldn't make any statement on?
(21:29:13) Aiarakoa_ES: to internally decide their vote (according to how they work within their countries)
(21:29:25) K`Tetch_US: yeah, its more of an issue per party
(21:29:52) Aiarakoa_ES: I don't like option two because of thinking it would leaves us less strength to make parliamentary deals
(21:30:04) Aiarakoa_ES: however, looking at such controversy regarding this issue
(21:30:07) Roderick_AU: I don't see why an international manifesto should be bogged down by what seems to be an intrinsically internal and national matter.
(21:30:11) Aiarakoa_ES: I cannot find, personally, other options
(21:30:28) Aiarakoa_ES: Roderick
(21:30:38) Aiarakoa_ES: it's a national matter ... except when talking about
(21:30:39) Aiarakoa_ES: UN
(21:30:41) Aiarakoa_ES: EU
(21:30:42) Aiarakoa_ES: WIPO
(21:30:52) Aiarakoa_ES: whatever international organisms
(21:31:24) Aiarakoa_ES: if more than two pirate parties
(21:31:33) Aiarakoa_ES: regardless of the continent where they are from
(21:31:39) Dragu_FI: I am entirely of the opinion that the manifesto or PPI for that matter shouldn't concern itself with the technicalities of national parliamentarism when it doesnt affect other countries in any obvious way
(21:31:42) Aiarakoa_ES: have to decide in any international organism on non-core issues
(21:31:50) Roderick_AU: but you are talking about political brokering, which is something that should be resolved behind party doors.
(21:32:02) Aiarakoa_ES: that's right when talking about technicalities
(21:32:03) Aiarakoa_ES: however
(21:32:05) Aiarakoa_ES: in the manifesto
(21:32:16) Aiarakoa_ES: if a manifesto means "we're here and we're going to make this"
(21:32:27) Aiarakoa_ES: the reader would wonder "what about the rest of issues"
(21:32:31) Aiarakoa_ES: ( I think the reader would )
(21:32:51) Aiarakoa_ES: if I'm right, then we should say something about it in the manifesto :)
(21:32:54) Dragu_FI: yes but I don't think the non-core methodology is even relevant to the pirate part in the manifesto
(21:33:01) Aiarakoa_ES: yes you're right
(21:33:11) Aiarakoa_ES: I just was point how controversial it is :)
(21:33:16) Aiarakoa_ES: I just was pointing how controversial it is :)
(21:33:22) Dragu_FI: I think we can informally or formally agree or hope to agree on something within the PPI, but this should be included in the manifesto
(21:33:23) Roderick_AU: a simple statement like "the party will confine itself to [[list categories]]"
(21:33:58) Dragu_FI: As I see it, it shouldnt be a pirate party manifesto, but a manifesto that all supporters of the idea can embrace regardless of being involved in parliamentary politics or not
(21:34:23) Dragu_FI: it should certainly concern itself with politics because the pirate movement is about politics
(21:34:38) Dragu_FI: but not exactly how whatever needs to be done should be done
(21:34:39) bAdBoYz_AT: sry, my lan cord got off...
(21:34:45) Aiarakoa_ES: I have a doubt about Roderick's approach:
(21:34:50) Aiarakoa_ES: if you merely say that
(21:35:17) Aiarakoa_ES: wouldn't it seem contradictory with the pirate parties activity each time that we take any stance on non-core issues
(21:35:26) Aiarakoa_ES: (in a national scope, or international scope)
(21:35:33) Dragu_FI: how do you mean?
(21:35:43) Aiarakoa_ES: I think that statement should explain
(21:36:09) Aiarakoa_ES: - that it's not due to us not caring about non-core issues, but due to us focusing on what we have consenssus on
(21:37:00) K`Tetch_US: its down to how best each national aprty wants to deal with the issue of 'representation of the populace' for issues outside the core
(21:37:16) Aiarakoa_ES: - that's not the party, but the party's ideology, what confines itself into the concrete ideological categories
(21:37:19) Dragu_FI: I don't see how taking a stance in pirate politics contradicts the freedom of dealing with non-core issues as each party sees fit, as long as the pirate things are the ore issue
(21:37:23) Dragu_FI: core*
(21:37:39) Aiarakoa_ES: what I mean
(21:37:45) Aiarakoa_ES: is that I think of the manifesto
(21:37:52) Aiarakoa_ES: as a greeting card from PPI
(21:37:58) Aiarakoa_ES: what the ... is PPI?
(21:38:02) Aiarakoa_ES: "take and read the manifesto"
(21:38:03) Aiarakoa_ES: :)
(21:38:11) Aiarakoa_ES: so 
(21:38:15) Dragu_FI: a greeting card from the PPI, to whom?
(21:38:24) Aiarakoa_ES: to the entire world
(21:38:31) K`Tetch_US: right, but that greetings card will be presented to the national voters, by that parties PP
(21:38:32) Aiarakoa_ES: to everyone to allow them to know us
(21:38:36) Dragu_FI: politicians? Pirate parties? citizen in general?
(21:38:45) K`Tetch_US: *by that COUNTRY's PP
(21:38:46) Aiarakoa_ES: citizens in general
(21:38:52) Roderick_AU: Well perhaps the PPI should be defined, because I'm not really sure myself as to the intention of its function.
(21:39:07) K`Tetch_US: so, each national party will add it's own 'non-core' method to their national version of the ppi
(21:39:10) K`Tetch_US: menifesto
(21:39:34) Dragu_FI: Then I think the manifesto should concern itself as little as possible with the technicalities of parliamentary politics. I think we can pretty much leave out the entire mention of non-core issues
(21:39:54) Roderick_AU: I agree.
(21:40:07) Aiarakoa_ES: I rather think that the explanation of that it's not due to us not caring about non-core issues, but due to us focusing on what we have consenssus on is needed
(21:40:24) Aiarakoa_ES: such explanation contains no technicality
(21:40:34) Dragu_FI: discussing parliamentary technicalities is what our common documents are for
(21:40:38) Dragu_FI: not the pirate manifesto
(21:40:54) Aiarakoa_ES: where is the technicality in that statement?
(21:41:25) Aiarakoa_ES: manifesto talks about A, B, C, D, E; why not about other letters? because of (that statement)
(21:41:31) Dragu_FI: Aiarakoa_ES: nowhere in that statement, but that statement is so vague it can be interpreted in many ways
(21:41:39) Aiarakoa_ES: there is no technicality in it
(21:41:43) Dragu_FI: ok, so what you mean is we should umm
(21:41:47) Dragu_FI: elaborate
(21:41:54) Dragu_FI: on why we don't mention the other letters?
(21:42:05) Aiarakoa_ES: I think so
(21:42:16) Roderick_AU: Non core issues can be very culturally relative, however reform of IP, human rights etc is not.
(21:42:20) Aiarakoa_ES: actually in PIRATA we think so according to the reaction of people who debate with us in Internet
(21:42:28) Aiarakoa_ES: when news from PIRATA arise in the Internet media
(21:42:45) Aiarakoa_ES: they always ask us why only those issues
(21:42:47) Dragu_FI: how do you intend to do that without creating lots of technicalities? By just saying "we let the parties decide" or?
(21:43:07) Aiarakoa_ES: how? just sticking to that statement's line
(21:43:10) Draco_AT is now known as Draco_afk
(21:43:23) Aiarakoa_ES: we, the pirate parties, agree on the core issues
(21:43:33) Aiarakoa_ES: and don't have consenssus on the non core issues
(21:43:36) Dragu_FI: And if we are to elaborate on that, then I must make clear that I see no reason to make that elaboration limited to parties, but should be appliable from everything to citizens to presidency
(21:43:38) Aiarakoa_ES: so we prefer to focus on the core issues
(21:44:09) Aiarakoa_ES: don't understand that
(21:44:16) Dragu_FI: what I mean is
(21:44:38) Dragu_FI: If we are to define that "Being a Pie Rat is about A,B,C and D"
(21:45:15) Dragu_FI: Then our way of elaborating on "why not E, F G...."
(21:45:22) Dragu_FI: should not even make a mention of the word "party"
(21:45:31) Aiarakoa_ES: no problem on that :)
(21:45:36) Dragu_FI: ok good
(21:45:49) Aiarakoa_ES: actually this is all about the pirate MOVEMENT, right?
(21:45:59) Dragu_FI: yes, that is my point
(21:46:07) Aiarakoa_ES: thus no problem on that
(21:46:16) Aiarakoa_ES: well
(21:46:24) Aiarakoa_ES: before further discussion
(21:46:28) Dragu_FI: I just had to ascertain that we agree on that
(21:46:48) Aiarakoa_ES: how do we approach the debate on all categories?
(21:46:50) K`Tetch_US: the way I've always thought of it is this "a political party shouldn't be tied to the positions of one man, or even of the party committee. We have a common set of issues, but beyond that, why should I force my opinoins of people all over the country on, say, abortion, because they happen to agree with me on government accountability."
(21:47:10) Aiarakoa_ES: I agree with that, ANdrw
(21:47:27) Aiarakoa_ES: foundations of democracy, and beyond that, it's up to citizens to decide about :)
(21:47:45) Roderick_AU: agreed :)
(21:47:58) Aiarakoa_ES: as I said
(21:47:58) Dragu_FI: Aiarakoa_ES: do you mean "approach" as in whether we should just discard everything that is controversial or start fighting or?
(21:48:07) Aiarakoa_ES: no no
(21:48:13) Aiarakoa_ES: I mean where should we start from
(21:48:22) K`Tetch_US: I live in the bible belt, so religion's big here (to the point no alcohol's sold on sundays, and you can't sell beer within such a distance from a church)
(21:48:28) Aiarakoa_ES: I suggest first the common points with nuances, from the common categories
(21:48:37) Aiarakoa_ES: then, the two categories not enlisted
(21:48:38) K`Tetch_US: so the pro-religeon bit here, wouldn't fly in, say, new york
(21:48:44) Aiarakoa_ES: and finally, the controversial points from common categories
(21:48:45) Aiarakoa_ES: do you agree?
(21:48:58) Dragu_FI: something like that
(21:49:07) Aiarakoa_ES: may we make a break to have dinner?
(21:49:15) Aiarakoa_ES: (or breakfast
(21:49:15) K`Tetch_US: okies
(21:49:16) Aiarakoa_ES: or lunch
(21:49:17) Roderick_AU: or breakfast :P
(21:49:18) Dragu_FI: how long?
(21:49:20) Aiarakoa_ES: depending on the time xD)
(21:49:21) Roderick_AU: lol
(21:49:32) Dragu_FI: 22:50 here (10:50 PM)
(21:49:40) K`Tetch_US: breakfast for rod, a late lunch for me 9probably just a beer and a sandwich)
(21:49:41) Roderick_AU: 5.50 AM here
(21:49:41) Aiarakoa_ES: maybe ... 25 minutes?
(21:49:52) Dragu_FI: ok, thats agreeable
(21:49:54) Roderick_AU: sounds good, i need a cup of coffee
(21:49:56) Aiarakoa_ES: ok
(21:50:01) Aiarakoa_ES is now known as AiaraHavingDinner
(21:50:40) Dragu_FI has changed the topic to: http://www.pp-international.net/ | Meeting continues at 20:15 UTC

After the break

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(22:14:03) Dragu_FI: so
(22:14:23) K`Tetch_US: trying to get a german or dutch rep here
(22:14:32) Dragu_FI: k
(22:16:18) AiaraHavingDinner: hi
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(22:16:27) Aiarakoa_ESA is now known as Aiarakoa_ES
(22:18:37) osh_DK: hi
(22:18:49) Dragu_FI: hi
(22:18:58) osh_DK: i understand that you are discussing the basic document structure
(22:19:14) osh_DK: anybody entering this into the wiki?
(22:19:16) bAdBoYz_AT: wb
(22:19:25) Dragu_FI: osh_DK: no, afaik
(22:19:33) osh_DK: thanks, sorry im late
(22:19:56) Aiarakoa_ES: not yet, Ole, first we find out common points
(22:19:58) Dragu_FI has changed the topic to: http://www.pp-international.net/ | Break is over
(22:20:00) Aiarakoa_ES: common points with nuances
(22:20:09) Aiarakoa_ES: and controversial points
(22:20:19) Aiarakoa_ES: now we're going to debate common points with nuances
(22:20:34) Aiarakoa_ES: later, Information Society, and Govenrment Transparency and Accountability
(22:20:41) Aiarakoa_ES: and finally the controversial points
(22:21:42) Aiarakoa_ES: let's start with the same order that we followed before
(22:21:49) Aiarakoa_ES: Civil Rights and Liberties
(22:21:52) bAdBoYz_AT: ok, then lets wait for some minutes for the others..
(22:22:01) Roderick_AU: present
(22:22:07) Dragu_FI: present
(22:22:09) Aiarakoa_ES: ok
(22:22:50) K`Tetch_US: here, kinda
(22:24:11) Roderick_AU: while we're waiting, with copyright, is there any contention re: moral rights and economic rights?
(22:24:34) Dragu_FI: can you be more specific?
(22:24:43) Roderick_AU: or is that just an arbitrary 5 year reduction?
(22:24:59) osh_DK: i think we all agree that "droit moral" should be kept
(22:25:25) Roderick_AU: ok
(22:25:29) Aiarakoa_ES: yes
(22:25:39) Aiarakoa_ES: we were talking about material (commercial) rights
(22:25:40) Roderick_AU: good, good. wasn't sure.
(22:27:56) osh_DK: should we continue?
(22:28:20) Roderick_AU: i think so
(22:28:51) bAdBoYz_AT: me too..
(22:29:07) Dragu_FI: yes
(22:29:22) Aiarakoa_ES: ok
(22:29:25) Aiarakoa_ES: Civil Rights and Liberties
(22:29:26) ***zzorn_FI looks in for a bit again
(22:30:11) Aiarakoa_ES: common points:
(22:30:18) Aiarakoa_ES: (with nuances)
(22:30:30) Aiarakoa_ES: - taking human rights as a reference
(22:30:30) Aiarakoa_ES: - freedom of speech, pressumption of innocence, customers rights
(22:30:37) Aiarakoa_ES: - condemning the use of violence to promote political claims, as well as racism, sexism, etc
(22:30:44) Aiarakoa_ES: here we are
(22:31:54) osh_DK: as for human rights, some refer to the UN declaration, while some refer to the european declaration
(22:32:25) osh_DK: imho no big problem - we can just refer to "human rights" in the manifesto
(22:32:36) Dragu_FI: the european one is slightly more restrictive I think
(22:32:43) Aiarakoa_ES: I agree, dragu
(22:32:44) osh_DK: it is
(22:33:04) Dragu_FI: such as stating that governments have the full right to limit political activity of foreigners etc
(22:33:52) Aiarakoa_ES: considering that this is a worldwide text
(22:34:00) Aiarakoa_ES: that EU Member States are also UDHR signatories
(22:34:21) Dragu_FI: yes, thats a good point
(22:34:25) Aiarakoa_ES: I think both european and non-european pirate parties would feel more comfortable with UDHR
(22:34:41) Dragu_FI: absolutely
(22:34:42) osh_DK: that makes sense, Carlos
(22:34:42) Roderick_AU: agree
(22:34:48) bAdBoYz_AT: yes....
(22:35:05) osh_DK: but why specify? we are drafting a manifesto, not a law text
(22:35:40) Dragu_FI: we might just go with "human rights" as well, although it leaves room for interpretation
(22:35:53) elmindreda left the room (qcow).
(22:36:16) Aiarakoa_ES: actually what are human rights?
(22:36:19) Aiarakoa_ES: I mean
(22:36:26) ***Aiue is away.. brbliaw [p!on]
(22:36:40) Aiarakoa_ES: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_of_Human_Rights
(22:37:03) Dragu_FI: interesting use of the term
(22:37:34) Aiarakoa_ES: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights
(22:37:45) Aiarakoa_ES: http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
(22:38:00) Aiarakoa_ES: abstracting is good to start, but after starting
(22:38:26) Aiarakoa_ES: in some issues certain concrete statements are required, otherwise we wouldn't exactly know what we would be talking about
(22:38:36) osh_DK: We avoid a lot of controversy by not chosing a specific one of them
(22:38:51) Aiarakoa_ES: sure
(22:39:08) Aiarakoa_ES: and we would may avoid debate about the nuances for all categories
(22:39:15) Aiarakoa_ES: it would speed the process
(22:39:28) osh_DK: We can still speak of specific human rights without specifying a particular declaration
(22:39:53) Aiarakoa_ES: which ones?
(22:39:59) K`Tetch_US: but when they ask 'what rights' what's the answer
(22:40:01) Dragu_FI: yes, though I think many of our direct stances on human rights are directly derived from our stances on civil rights, society of rights/law and democracy
(22:40:16) K`Tetch_US: and as someone said to me months ago 'you know anyone that says they're AGAINST human rights?
(22:40:17) Dragu_FI: (since they are in obvious dependency relationships to other, more basic rights)
(22:40:34) Aiarakoa_ES: I know a few politicians, Andrew
(22:40:45) Dragu_FI: "Oh I'm definately against change for the better"
(22:40:45) K`Tetch_US: they actually say that, outright?
(22:40:57) zzorn_FI: K`Tetch_US, good point, just saying that we are for human rights is not carrying that much information
(22:41:14) Aiarakoa_ES: depends on the day xD
(22:41:18) Dragu_FI: everyone claims to be for human rights I think
(22:41:25) Dragu_FI: (most, that is)
(22:41:34) Aiarakoa_ES: those politicians rely on the belief of voters having a short-term memory :)
(22:41:38) bAdBoYz_AT: yes
(22:42:20) zzorn_FI: we could specify it a bit, and our reasoning for it - like the right to private communication is a human right, and it needs to be defended against the police state trend, etc.'
(22:42:40) K`Tetch_US: 'human rights' is such a broad term, that it could mean anything from pro-choice abortions, to free speech, to practicing genital mutilaton
(22:43:07) K`Tetch_US: and it's been so overused, that it has lost meaning
(22:43:15) Dragu_FI: the only real distinction between our stances on civil rights and human rights is that human rights also concern themselves with things like "right to live" and "right to marriage" etc
(22:43:22) K`Tetch_US: perhaps a dialogue with amnesty international, for starters?
(22:43:36) zzorn_FI: IIRC one of the human rights texts also include the right for some kind of control of your non-physical work (basically IP like, although it leaves room for interpretation)
(22:43:39) Dragu_FI: that being the case, I don't think we need to emphasize that human rights part nearly as much as the civil rights one
(22:43:41) Aiarakoa_ES: I guess they'll submit to UDHR
(22:44:04) ***zzorn_FI nods at Dragu_FI 
(22:44:49) Aiarakoa_ES: if we  emphasize specific ones
(22:45:02) Aiarakoa_ES: then we would arrive to point two:
(22:45:16) Aiarakoa_ES: (apart from removing point one)
(22:45:24) Aiarakoa_ES: - freedom of speech, pressumption of innocence, customers rights
(22:45:35) Aiarakoa_ES: i.e. -as Andrew said-: civil rights ... which ones?
(22:46:04) Dragu_FI: those relevant to an information society, a democracy and a society of rights/law (rechtsstaat)
(22:46:43) osh_DK: rights to free speech,  privacy, access to information and culture in particular
(22:47:05) Aiarakoa_ES: pressumption of innocence
(22:47:27) Dragu_FI: free speech, privacy, access to information are included in SoR and IS
(22:47:43) Aiarakoa_ES: SoR?
(22:47:46) osh_DK: "SoR and IS"?
(22:48:09) Dragu_FI: presumption of innocence is central in SoR (State of Rights/State of Law/Rechtsstaat (see wikipedia))
(22:48:14) Aiarakoa_ES: ok
(22:48:15) Dragu_FI: IS = Information Society
(22:48:32) osh_DK: ok
(22:48:43) Aiarakoa_ES: being equal before the law
(22:48:49) Dragu_FI: included in rechsstaat
(22:49:06) Dragu_FI: (I'll use that term from now on)
(22:49:25) Aiarakoa_ES: (also including being equal before the law, regardless on whether we talk about Internet or the RealWorldTM xD)
(22:49:44) Dragu_FI: in danish I think its "retsstat", espanish "Estado de Derecho"
(22:49:57) Dragu_FI: spanish*
(22:50:16) osh_DK: it is "retsstat" in danish
(22:50:48) Aiue is now known as Aiue\pepzi
(22:52:47) Roderick_AU: Rule of Law in Australia/UK
(22:53:15) Aiarakoa_ES: Rule of Law in some countries includes the "rechtstaat" concept
(22:53:23) Aiarakoa_ES: in Spain Rule of the Law means "imperio de la ley"
(22:53:40) Aiarakoa_ES: and goes together and binded to the "Estado de Derecho" concept
(22:53:55) PDA_AT [pda@pp-9842CA58.adsl.highway.telekom.at] entered the room.
(22:54:13) Aiarakoa_ES: furthermore, for the rechtstaat to work, law must rule
(22:54:19) osh_DK: also the right to protection against arbitrary arrest, detention or exile, and the right to go to court
(22:54:47) Aiarakoa_ES: PIRATA's draft for Civil RIghts and Liberties enumerates the following
(22:54:48) Aiarakoa_ES: #  Libertad de Expresión ( 2.a.9 Est.; 18,19,20 DH; 16,20,21,22 CE )
(22:54:48) Aiarakoa_ES: # Privacidad ( 2.a.9 Est.; 12 DH; 18 CE )
(22:54:48) Aiarakoa_ES: # Presunción de inocencia/tutela judicial ( 2.a.9 Est.; 8,9,10,11 DH; 17,24,25.1 CE )
(22:54:48) Aiarakoa_ES: # Igualdad ante la Ley/ausencia de discriminación ( 2.a.10 Est; 2,7 DH; 14 CE )
(22:54:48) Aiarakoa_ES: # Derecho a la vida y a la integridad física y moral ( 2.a.10 Est; 3,4,5,6 DH; 15 CE ) 
(22:54:52) Aiarakoa_ES: (translated )
(22:55:00) Dragu_FI: rechtsstaat as a term etymologically includes both "justice" and "rights" afaik
(22:55:19) Dragu_FI: (mostly because its ambiguous)
(22:55:36) Aiarakoa_ES: Freedom of speech - Privacy - Pressumption of innocence/right to go to court - equality before the law/no discrimination - right to life and moral and physical integrity
(22:56:26) K`Tetch_US: "right to life" as in what?
(22:56:51) Aiarakoa_ES: according to Spanish Constitution, "Everyone has the right to life and to physical and moral integrity, and under no circumstances may be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading punishment or treatment"
(22:57:18) PDA_AT: sounds.. good..
(22:57:50) Aiarakoa_ES: Spanish Constitution also states, "Everyone has the right to life and to physical and moral integrity, and under no circumstances may be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading punishment or treatment"
(22:57:52) K`Tetch_US: ok, here, 'right to life' is used to mean 'anti-abortion'
(22:57:53) Aiarakoa_ES: ...
(22:57:56) Aiarakoa_ES: damn copy & paste
(22:58:01) Aiarakoa_ES: "Death penalty is hereby abolished, except as provided for by military criminal law in times of war"
(22:59:15) Dragu_FI: "right to life" generally means the right not to be killed (at least not for arbitrary or unlawful reason)
(22:59:43) K`Tetch_US: yeah, its just slogan phrases like that can have different meanings in different places
(22:59:48) Dragu_FI: (which essentially is a "right" so basic to modern society we think its obvious)
(22:59:57) K`Tetch_US: thats one problem, and something i wanted to make sure was defined
(22:59:59) osh_DK: In the US, terms like "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are almost orwellian doublespeak
(23:00:07) K`Tetch_US: yeah, i know
(23:00:23) K`Tetch_US: it's YET ANOTHER language i have to learn
(23:00:30) PDA_AT: mh
(23:00:32) osh_DK: I like to have choise, but that doesn't mean im against life :)
(23:00:57) K`Tetch_US: yep
(23:01:31) Aiarakoa_ES: indeed, the spanish constitution provision regarding life limits the abortion
(23:01:39) Aiarakoa_ES: abortion is partially allowed in Spain
(23:01:43) Aiarakoa_ES: only in certain cases
(23:02:32) Aiarakoa_ES: laws allowing all-purpose time-windowed abortion were banned by Constitutional Court
(23:02:57) K`Tetch_US: some of the states here go overboard like south dakota - http://www.gainesville.com/article/20080723/NEWS/392168164&title=S__Dakota_doctors_required_to_recite_statement_before_performing_abortions
(23:02:59) Dragu_FI: In finland its essentially allowed for pretty much any purpose up until the 12th week of pregnancy
(23:03:09) Dragu_FI: but it still includes lots of paperwork
(23:03:39) Dragu_FI: because you need to have a doctors order to actually have abortion, and you have to state a cause that is somehow relevant to the wellbeing of either child or mother
(23:03:39) K`Tetch_US: "The 2005 law requires doctors to tell women "that the abortion will terminate the life of a whole, separate, unique, living human being." Women also would have to be told they have a right to continue a pregnancy and that abortion may cause them psychological harm, including thoughts of suicide."
(23:03:52) K`Tetch_US: A law that took effect July 1 requires doctors to ask women if they want to see sonograms of their fetuses, but women will not be forced to look at them.
(23:04:13) osh_DK: if we do not mention abortion, i dont think we would get problems mentioning that we think everybody has a right to live
(23:04:56) K`Tetch_US: right, i was just pointing out (without intending to derail things) that 'right to life', and other phrases, can have other connotations in some places
(23:05:31) osh_DK: yes, and it is good to mention - we have to be careful about that
(23:05:35) Aiarakoa_ES: PIRATA formula for right to life is the following: "PIRATA will also condemn any attempt against anyone's life and integrity, and will condemn any attempt of excluding and prosecuting people because of their ideologies, faith or beliefs, nationality, race, gender or sexual preferences"
(23:06:03) Aiarakoa_ES: (taken from Spanish Political Parties Law)
(23:06:20) Aiarakoa_ES: (we're actually willing to approach, for the discrimination part, the constitutional text
(23:06:36) Aiarakoa_ES: "Spaniards [...] may not in any way be discriminated against on account of birth, race, sex, religion, opinion or any other personal or social condition or circumstance")
(23:08:48) osh_DK: makes sense to me
(23:09:10) osh_DK: are we ready to conclude on the human rights issues for now?
(23:09:18) Aiarakoa_ES: it depends
(23:09:33) Aiarakoa_ES: have we agreed on the ones that we are willing to include?
(23:10:01) K`Tetch_US: I'd say yes, but the test comes when we look back on it, in a few days time
(23:10:45) Aiarakoa_ES: Freedom of speech - Privacy - Pressumption of innocence/right to go to court - equality before the law/no discrimination - right to life and moral and physical integrity?
(23:10:51) Aiarakoa_ES: as basis for rechtstaat?
(23:10:57) osh_DK: rights to live, equality, privacy, free speech, presumption of innocense
(23:11:04) osh_DK: did i forget any?
(23:11:13) Aiarakoa_ES: think it's ok
(23:11:38) Aiarakoa_ES: the last point for civil rights and liberties
(23:11:43) Aiarakoa_ES: regarding democracy
(23:11:44) Aiarakoa_ES: - condemning the use of violence to promote political claims, as well as racism, sexism, etc
(23:11:56) Aiarakoa_ES: racism, sexism, are included in the former list
(23:11:58) Aiarakoa_ES: so
(23:12:12) Aiarakoa_ES: it's about condemning the use of violence to promote political claims
(23:12:14) Aiarakoa_ES: like
(23:12:33) Aiarakoa_ES: give me what I wount or I'll burn your house/break your legs/kill your family/etc
(23:12:46) Aiarakoa_ES: instead
(23:13:05) Aiarakoa_ES: parliaments, citizens' initiatives
(23:13:17) Aiarakoa_ES: would be the mechanisms for people, for us, to make our claims
(23:14:05) Aiarakoa_ES: what do you think about it?
(23:14:23) osh_DK: using violence to promote political claims should be condemned in a democracy - but how about a non-democracy?
(23:14:49) Aiarakoa_ES: according to UDHR
(23:15:04) Aiarakoa_ES: "Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,"
(23:15:26) K`Tetch_US: "no political claim or position has any validity if it is not expressed through reasoned rational thought and argument"
(23:15:28) Aiarakoa_ES: so we are assuming to work with the rule of law"
(23:16:17) bAdBoYz_AT: ok folks, im going to sleep... see u next time here
(23:16:18) bAdBoYz_AT: gn8
(23:16:25) Aiarakoa_ES: by, bAdBoYz
(23:16:26) osh_DK: see you
(23:17:20) osh_DK: under the presumption we live under a rule of law based on the will of the people, I have no problem condemning political violence
(23:17:49) Aiarakoa_ES: as far as I see it
(23:18:06) Aiarakoa_ES: condemning political violence is like condemning attacks to life
(23:18:13) Aiarakoa_ES: think of self-defense
(23:18:31) Aiarakoa_ES: when rule of law prevails
(23:18:44) Aiarakoa_ES: there is no rational argument -as Andrew said- for violence
(23:18:47) Dragu_FI: I don't think we have to separately condemn political violence as we probably condemn general civil violence anyway
(23:19:16) Aiarakoa_ES: such types of violence are pretty different
(23:19:18) K`Tetch_US: what i said not only condems the violence, without specifying violence, it also puts the emphasis on 'rational'
(23:19:32) K`Tetch_US: that also deals with emotive arguments, without any facts
(23:19:34) Aiarakoa_ES: I may argue in a pub with a dude
(23:19:42) Aiarakoa_ES: about a football team
(23:19:53) Aiarakoa_ES: or about economics, or religion, or a girl, or about whatever
(23:20:02) osh_DK: Andrew has a good point, i think
(23:20:02) Aiarakoa_ES: and fight, and injury each other
(23:20:22) Aiarakoa_ES: but it's not about that, Dragu: it's about trying to impose claims to other through violence
(23:20:35) K`Tetch_US: instead of saying 'this is bad' and looking 'preachy' we say whats good, specifically
(23:21:01) Dragu_FI: Aiarakoa_ES: usually, when organized, labeled "terrorism"
(23:21:03) Aiarakoa_ES: don't get the "preachy" point :)
(23:21:18) Dragu_FI: Aiarakoa_ES: but why do we have to have a separate stance on that in the manifesto?
(23:21:31) K`Tetch_US: preachy, as in like a priest, shouting out 'don't do this, don't do that'
(23:21:42) Aiarakoa_ES: I know I know what a preacher is
(23:22:08) Aiarakoa_ES: what I didn't got is telling that violence to make claims being not acceptable becomes preachy
(23:22:20) Aiarakoa_ES: I think both things
(23:22:24) K`Tetch_US: its the whole 'don't do that' aspect
(23:22:31) Aiarakoa_ES: telling that rational argument is the acceptable one
(23:22:40) K`Tetch_US: instead of saying 'don't do that' and being negative, say 'this is the way to go' and be positive there
(23:22:43) Aiarakoa_ES: and that imposing through violence is the unacceptable
(23:22:54) osh_DK: I like wghat Andres said; perhaps we should say something like: "No political claim or position has any validity if it is not expressed through reasoned rational thought and argument. Violence is no means to obtain political objectives in a democracy."
(23:23:13) Aiarakoa_ES: somewhat like Ole's would serve, I think
(23:23:21) Aiarakoa_ES: as long as I consider both statements compatible :)
(23:23:42) Dragu_FI: osh_DK: something like that perhaps
(23:23:55) Dragu_FI: and a good emphasis on "in a democracy" ;)
(23:24:12) Aiarakoa_ES: it's a good emphasis
(23:24:15) Aiarakoa_ES: though watch out
(23:24:22) Aiarakoa_ES: as the answer follows
(23:24:37) Aiarakoa_ES: "but ... I don't live in a democracy!" (trying to justify certain acts)
(23:24:43) Roderick_AU: "...firmly holds belief in democracy, and rejects any use of force, intimidation or physical violence as the means to achieving political goals. We vehemently reject any and all forms of political or public corruption."
(23:24:47) K`Tetch_US: how about 'in any civilised society' then instead of 'in a democracy'
(23:24:50) Aiarakoa_ES: as I say, I like Ole's approach
(23:24:51) Roderick_AU: from our developing constitution
(23:25:02) Aiarakoa_ES: don't find necessary to change Ole's approach
(23:25:03) Aiarakoa_ES: I just warn
(23:25:10) Aiarakoa_ES: that the answer will follows
(23:25:17) Aiarakoa_ES: (to get us ready :))
(23:25:30) K`Tetch_US: right, so instead of democracy, say 'civilised society'
(23:25:44) Aiarakoa_ES: fine :)
(23:25:56) osh_DK: Im thinking about how to overthrow a dictator to obtain democracy - that should be possible, even if violence is needed for it
(23:25:58) K`Tetch_US: while some will say they're not in a democracy 9I will say that about the US) I wound't say its a civilised society
(23:26:15) Aiarakoa_ES: US was founded through the use of violence
(23:26:26) Aiarakoa_ES: Spain avoided French rule through violence
(23:26:57) K`Tetch_US: a dictatorship may not be a civilised society
(23:26:57) Lamps [Administra@pp-F4A5174C.dsl.telesp.net.br] entered the room.
(23:27:00) Aiarakoa_ES: I know, Ole, that history reminds us
(23:27:07) Aiarakoa_ES: however, as Andrew points out
(23:27:16) K`Tetch_US: ok, people, Lamps here is from the starting brazilian party
(23:27:29) Aiarakoa_ES: a dictatorship wouldn't be a civilised society
(23:27:33) osh_DK: welcome Lamps
(23:27:39) Aiarakoa_ES: (e.g., because treat citizens like children
(23:27:42) Aiarakoa_ES: hi Lamps
(23:27:47) Lamps: thanks ;D
(23:27:48) osh_DK: nice to hear you are starting up in Brazil
(23:27:52) Roderick_AU: hey lamps
(23:27:54) Lamps: hi everyone..
(23:28:04) Aiarakoa_ES: taking away responsibility from them, denying them right to decide, alienating them
(23:28:04) ricsdeol [ricsdeol@B6CF0AA0.677F4718.69BF3602.IP] entered the room.
(23:28:20) Aiarakoa_ES: yes, Andrew, it would be a good point :))
(23:28:21) Dragu_FI: obviously depends on the definition of "civilized" ;)
(23:28:26) ricsdeol left the room (Saindo).
(23:28:38) Dragu_FI: Though I don't think thats an issue
(23:28:41) Aiarakoa_ES: Romans, e.g., only allowed a 6-month dictatorship term
(23:28:53) Aiarakoa_ES: until Julius Caesar arrived
(23:28:57) Aiarakoa_ES: then the Republic ended
(23:29:01) Lamps is now known as Lamps_BR
(23:29:06) Aiarakoa_ES: and the Julii corrupted Rome
(23:29:18) Aiarakoa_ES: Augustus, Tiberius, Nero, etc
(23:29:18) ricsdeol [ricsdeol@B6CF0AA0.677F4718.69BF3602.IP] entered the room.
(23:29:36) Aiarakoa_ES: dictatorship arrives, civilisation ends
(23:29:53) Aiarakoa_ES: (it took a few centuries, but finally roman civilisation was eroded)
(23:30:03) Dragu_FI: are we sidetracking?
(23:30:10) Aiarakoa_ES: slightly xD
(23:30:10) Roderick_AU: i think so
(23:30:22) Aiarakoa_ES: coming back to the thing
(23:30:36) Aiarakoa_ES: with this we would have finished the common points for Civil Rights and Liberties
(23:30:50) ricsdeol left the room (Saindo).
(23:31:02) Dragu_FI: whats left? non-core and information society?
(23:31:10) Aiarakoa_ES: Patents, Trademarks
(23:31:20) Aiarakoa_ES: Authors Rights
(23:31:24) Aiarakoa_ES: (common points with nuances)
(23:31:38) Aiarakoa_ES: Information society and Government accountability and transparency
(23:31:54) Aiarakoa_ES: (trying to find out what to include from these categorie)
(23:31:56) Aiarakoa_ES: and finally
(23:31:57) ***Xuenay resists temptation to insert Vampire joke referring to the Julii bit, mostly because couldn't come up with one fast enough
(23:32:00) Aiarakoa_ES: the controversial debates
(23:32:30) Aiarakoa_ES: we would may finish the debates next week
(23:32:38) Aiarakoa_ES: 31st of July
(23:32:46) Aiarakoa_ES: or as late as 7th of August
(23:33:05) Aiarakoa_ES: thus having almost all august to "make it look eye-candy"
(23:33:11) K`Tetch_US: yeah, next week
(23:33:29) Aiarakoa_ES: i.e., once having found the common points, polishing and embellishing the text will be easier :)
(23:33:31) osh_DK: we should have a template draft in the wiki before next week
(23:33:35) PDA_AT left the room.
(23:33:36) Dragu_FI: yes
(23:33:44) osh_DK: so our discussions can be a bit more concrete
(23:33:54) Aiarakoa_ES: I'll put today's results tonight or tomorrow morning
(23:34:05) K`Tetch_US: we also need to get those that are missing here, Helmut, Amelia, erm 'core'
(23:34:09) brunobca_BR [brunobca@DA71CEF4.8B460A7.D30621A7.IP] entered the room.
(23:34:55) Aiarakoa_ES: next meeting, 5th session
(23:35:02) Aiarakoa_ES: 31st of July, 18:00 UTC (20:00 CEST)?
(23:35:03) osh_DK: perhaps it would be a good idea to make the draft manifesto a separate wiki page
(23:35:13) Aiarakoa_ES: it is
(23:35:22) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto#First_Draft
(23:35:34) Dragu_FI: btw, that wiki should seriously be better linked
(23:35:42) osh_DK: 31st at 18:00 UTC suite me fine
(23:35:45) Dragu_FI: I've had hewg problems finding anything relevant to the manifesto project there
(23:35:45) ricsdeol [ricsdeol@B6CF0AA0.677F4718.69BF3602.IP] entered the room.
(23:35:50) K`Tetch_US: thats 14:00 EDT, assuming its the same time as today started
(23:36:01) Aiarakoa_ES: but Dragu
(23:36:10) Aiarakoa_ES: that link is in that wiki's main page
(23:36:12) Roderick_AU: another 4am start for me! super!
(23:36:34) Aiarakoa_ES: roderick
(23:36:38) Aiarakoa_ES: I recommend you to go out
(23:36:44) Aiarakoa_ES: flirt with some chicks
(23:36:46) Aiarakoa_ES: have fun
(23:36:56) Aiarakoa_ES: and come back home just to get ready to start the session :D
(23:36:57) Roderick_AU: come back drunk, might make a better contribution :P
(23:37:01) Aiarakoa_ES: sure!
(23:37:01) Aiarakoa_ES: :D
(23:37:07) Aiarakoa_ES: ;)
(23:37:08) Dragu_FI: Aiarakoa_ES: yes, that one, but I had problems finding the "at a glance" etc pages
(23:37:18) osh_DK: iwas thinking about a separate page, not a section in the same large page
(23:37:30) Dragu_FI: I did, eventually. But they could be gathered better under Category:Pirate Manifesto
(23:37:57) Aiarakoa_ES: yes
(23:37:59) Aiarakoa_ES: that's my fault
(23:38:10) Aiarakoa_ES: I'm going to bind it to that category
(23:38:48) Dragu_FI: kthx
(23:39:23) Aiarakoa_ES: do I link the Category in the wiki main page?
(23:39:27) Aiarakoa_ES: even highlighting it?
(23:39:58) Dragu_FI: That would be nice
(23:40:21) Dragu_FI: (you can add a link with [[:Category:Pirate Manifesto]]
(23:40:26) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Category:Pirate_Manifesto
(23:40:57) Dragu_FI: thanks
(23:44:04) Aiue\pepzi: Received CTCP 'KANO' (to #ppi) from Aiue\pepzi
(23:44:09) Aiue\pepzi: (sorry, just checking)
(23:44:10) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Main_Page#Points_of_interest
(23:44:17) Aiue\pepzi: awwh, no kano users anywhere these days :(
(23:44:32) Aiarakoa_ES: how does it look like now?
(23:44:40) Lamps_BR: kano? 
(23:45:10) Aiue\pepzi: Lamps_BR: yeah, old script for an old client back from the old days, like ten years ago.
(23:45:35) Lamps_BR: =o   rlly brand new. =D
(23:46:12) Aiue\pepzi: Yeah. What's funny is the client, XiRCON, made is as far as beta 4. :p
(23:46:16) Aiarakoa_ES: by the way, Lamps
(23:46:18) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_parties_at_a_glance#Who
(23:46:27) Aiarakoa_ES: you may add Partido Pirata do Brazil to the list
(23:46:39) Aiarakoa_ES: if you want to participate in the Pirate Manifesto's development
(23:46:52) K`Tetch_US: and pick one of you two to deal with us crazy SOBs
(23:47:04) Aiarakoa_ES: SOBs?
(23:47:23) Lamps_BR: brunobca_BR, u there?
(23:47:38) K`Tetch_US: hijos de puta :-)
(23:47:45) Lamps_BR: we'll do it... i think. =]
(23:48:05) K`Tetch_US: (in an affectionate way, carlos:-)
(23:48:10) Aiarakoa_ES: xD
(23:48:19) Aiarakoa_ES: like Kissinger said
(23:48:24) Aiarakoa_ES: "he's a SOB, but our SOB"
(23:48:25) Aiarakoa_ES: xD
(23:48:30) K`Tetch_US: si
(23:53:21) eCo left the room (quit: Client exited).
(25-07-2008 00:00:38) K`Tetch_US: i guess everyone fell asleep at once...
(00:01:14) K`Tetch_US: ok, people here, anyone still reading
(00:01:16) Aiarakoa_ES: and now?
(00:01:23) K`Tetch_US: are your nicknames registered
(00:01:25) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Main_Page
(00:01:28) Aiarakoa_ES: not here
(00:01:31) Aiarakoa_ES: Dragu?
(00:01:55) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Main_Page#Pirate_Manifesto
(00:01:58) Aiarakoa_ES: Andrew
(00:02:02) Aiarakoa_ES: how does it look like now?
(00:02:32) K`Tetch_US: one sec
(00:02:48) Lamps_BR: my (mine?) is.
(00:03:17) K`Tetch_US: looks ok
(00:03:29) K`Tetch_US: yes, 'mine' lamps
(00:03:34) Dragu_FI: well, works
(00:03:52) K`Tetch_US: thats all that matters
(00:03:57) K`Tetch_US: if it works, it works
(00:04:01) Lamps_BR: =D
(00:04:21) ***K`Tetch_US is going to op all on this list with the chanserv - http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto#Who
(00:04:52) K`Tetch_US: but probably tommorow now ;-)
(00:05:29) Aiue\pepzi is now known as Aiue
(00:05:35) ***Aiue is away.. ?L ?L ?L! [p!on]
(00:06:01) Aiarakoa_ES: well
(00:06:07) Aiarakoa_ES: ladies and gentlemen
(00:06:27) Aiarakoa_ES: here one who's not a lady xD nor a gentleman :O
(00:06:32) Aiarakoa_ES: (just a man :D)
(00:06:39) Aiarakoa_ES: is going to sleep
(00:06:55) osh_DK: I'll upload the log from tonight to the wiki
(00:07:02) Aiarakoa_ES: ok
(00:07:05) Aiarakoa_ES: ole
(00:07:10) Aiarakoa_ES: may I suggest you something?
(00:07:15) osh_DK: sure
(00:08:46) Aiarakoa_ES: after creating the log wiki page
(00:08:49) Aiarakoa_ES: you may link it here
(00:08:50) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto#Meetings
(00:09:00) Aiarakoa_ES: (to the fourth session's line)
(00:09:21) forest_AT left the room (quit: Quit: ).
(00:09:52) osh_DK: we also have http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto#Weekly_meetings.27_logs, but I can link it in both places
(00:11:31) Aiarakoa_ES: that's the suggestion: to merge "Weekly meetings" into "meetings" -as "meetings" is inside the "When/How" section
(00:11:36) Aiarakoa_ES: :)